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20VC β€” Anthropic vs The Pentagon: Who Wins?

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Kind: captions Language: en The consensus is in law, Anthropic will The consensus is in law, Anthropic will probably win a good slug of this case, probably win a good slug of this case, which is different than saying they're which is different than saying they're going to win the fight. The idea that going to win the fight. The idea that you can just have all this [ __ ] for free you can just have all this [ __ ] for free is at some point going to stop cuz is at some point going to stop cuz someone's going to have to cover their someone's going to have to cover their nut. This week, Anthropic sues the US nut. This week, Anthropic sues the US government. Oracle and Open AI end plans government. Oracle and Open AI end plans to expand flagship data center. Meta to expand flagship data center. Meta moves in to absorb the surplus AI data moves in to absorb the surplus AI data center capacity. Crowd Strike. They beat center capacity. Crowd Strike. They beat expectations but trade down. And then expectations but trade down. And then finally, we have our stock picks. What finally, we have our stock picks. What to buy, what to sell, public market to buy, what to sell, public market predictions coming up. predictions coming up. >> I think getting rid of juniors is where >> I think getting rid of juniors is where we get budget for these data centers in we get budget for these data centers in part. >> This goes really cold. You can have >> This goes really cold. You can have dispossessed urban poor forever and dispossessed urban poor forever and nothing happens. But if you piss off the nothing happens. But if you piss off the 20some year old middle class, the 20some year old middle class, the overeducated elites, they tend to cause overeducated elites, they tend to cause trouble. The truth is open AI and have trouble. The truth is open AI and have the most amount of surface area to the most amount of surface area to attack [music] of any company in the attack [music] of any company in the world right now. world right now. >> The era of gentle deceleration has >> The era of gentle deceleration has ended. It's dead. Ready to go. [music] Boys, we have a big week of news. As Boys, we have a big week of news. As always, we're going to start with this always, we're going to start with this week in anthropic. So, we have gone from week in anthropic. So, we have gone from couple of hundred million dollars in couple of hundred million dollars in lost contracts with the Pentagon and lost contracts with the Pentagon and with the DoD to potentially billions of with the DoD to potentially billions of dollars at risk. If we start here and dollars at risk. If we start here and the billions of dollars at risk, how did the billions of dollars at risk, how did you analyze that? And maybe Rory, the you analyze that? And maybe Rory, the wonderful context giver, if you want to wonderful context giver, if you want to provide some context. provide some context. >> Yeah, I I will. I think that Antropic >> Yeah, I I will. I think that Antropic in my view correctly sued the federal in my view correctly sued the federal government in both California and government in both California and subsequently in DC just for procedural subsequently in DC just for procedural reasons. Basically saying that the reasons. Basically saying that the government's designation of them as a government's designation of them as a supply chain risk was incorrect. badly supply chain risk was incorrect. badly done and you know didn't would not done and you know didn't would not should not legally stand up and the should not legally stand up and the reason they're suing immediately versus reason they're suing immediately versus talking is they're stating that quite a talking is they're stating that quite a lot of revenue could be at risk for them lot of revenue could be at risk for them because the department of war and the because the department of war and the government I think I should said that government I think I should said that the administration has articulated a the administration has articulated a very aggressive definition of supply very aggressive definition of supply chain risk. If you recollect last week I chain risk. If you recollect last week I was not entirely pro the entropic was not entirely pro the entropic position and I stand by that but I think position and I stand by that but I think the government is now overreaching as the government is now overreaching as well. So, like all good disasters, both well. So, like all good disasters, both sides are doing things wrong. But it's sides are doing things wrong. But it's totally rational for the government to totally rational for the government to say, "You want $200 million of revenue say, "You want $200 million of revenue from us and you want to get in our from us and you want to get in our shorts and tell us what to do and we're shorts and tell us what to do and we're the Department of War and we ain't going the Department of War and we ain't going to do that. So, you're not getting your to do that. So, you're not getting your 200 million." That's totally fair. But 200 million." That's totally fair. But designating a supply chain risk has a designating a supply chain risk has a series of escalating consequences. At a series of escalating consequences. At a minimum, it implies no one can use them. minimum, it implies no one can use them. No one can use them selling. No other No one can use them selling. No other company selling to the Department of War company selling to the Department of War can use them for those contracts can use them for those contracts which is one step more. But again, I see which is one step more. But again, I see how the Department of Defense might get how the Department of Defense might get to that place. But then you're seeing to that place. But then you're seeing the government articulate these really the government articulate these really expansive definition can ask which is expansive definition can ask which is throw them out entirely of every throw them out entirely of every government contract which seems an government contract which seems an overreach and then even more overreach overreach and then even more overreach and it's actually not happening because and it's actually not happening because the various cloud providers have pushed the various cloud providers have pushed back in it. There was one version that back in it. There was one version that said if you use Antropic at all said if you use Antropic at all Microsoft or Amazon then we won't use Microsoft or Amazon then we won't use you at all in the US government and you at all in the US government and that's an element of frankly almost that's an element of frankly almost ludicrous overreach. So what's happening ludicrous overreach. So what's happening here is here is basically Entropic and Department of War basically Entropic and Department of War are trying to figure out, you know, are trying to figure out, you know, where in the spat how big is the blast where in the spat how big is the blast radius of consequences from this $200 radius of consequences from this $200 million contract. And my perspective it million contract. And my perspective it get there should be consequences, but get there should be consequences, but having it be this big a blast radius having it be this big a blast radius doesn't really stand up. And I think the doesn't really stand up. And I think the consensus is in law, Anthropic will consensus is in law, Anthropic will probably win a good slug of this case, probably win a good slug of this case, which is different than saying and which is different than saying and they're going to win the fight. they're going to win the fight. >> Well, look, I mean there's there's >> Well, look, I mean there's there's something to me that's minorly something to me that's minorly interesting. Um, and then more interesting. Um, and then more interesting. The minorly interesting interesting. The minorly interesting thing is how hard the hammer came down. thing is how hard the hammer came down. I mean, they they're going to lose like I mean, they they're going to lose like the the the the like it it's like the the the the like it it's like tariffs. Even if for some reason um tariffs. Even if for some reason um anthropic wins their case, they'll just anthropic wins their case, they'll just the the the DoD will just come the the the the DoD will just come the Department of War will just come back Department of War will just come back with another issue just like tariffs. with another issue just like tariffs. They'll find another justification They'll find another justification to block anthropic or even at a a to block anthropic or even at a a minimum I think the real panic I I think minimum I think the real panic I I think maybe what they didn't realize at at and maybe what they didn't realize at at and then I'll talk about to me what's more then I'll talk about to me what's more interesting, but I think what they interesting, but I think what they didn't realize is what a blocker it didn't realize is what a blocker it would be with their customers. it. This would be with their customers. it. This is just a classic B2B sales issue. Uh is just a classic B2B sales issue. Uh you know, you walk into these big deals you know, you walk into these big deals and they said it in the complaint and and they said it in the complaint and we're struggling we're struggling to close deals because prospects are to close deals because prospects are worried that just some of their business worried that just some of their business has exposure to the federal government has exposure to the federal government and the department of war. And then and the department of war. And then their competition open XI said we don't their competition open XI said we don't have these problems and you and they may have these problems and you and they may steal the deal. Like they literally said steal the deal. Like they literally said in the in the complaint, this is issue in the in the complaint, this is issue and this is classic B2B stress. Like you and this is classic B2B stress. Like you don't it only has to be the risk only don't it only has to be the risk only has to be ambiguous in a B2B deal for has to be ambiguous in a B2B deal for you to lose and go with another leader. you to lose and go with another leader. It just has to be it's a little bit less It just has to be it's a little bit less secure or they went down for two days or secure or they went down for two days or the the database was left open. And so the the database was left open. And so there was a classic B2B panic and I there was a classic B2B panic and I don't want to get into politics but I I don't want to get into politics but I I honestly don't I mean the the government honestly don't I mean the the government is saying listen we need you for war and is saying listen we need you for war and in fact it's more than that. The in fact it's more than that. The government is saying we used Palunteer government is saying we used Palunteer without anthropics knowledge to conduct without anthropics knowledge to conduct a war in Venezuela and depose a a war in Venezuela and depose a government. We did that without government. We did that without anthropics knowledge. So it it happened. anthropics knowledge. So it it happened. But the government's going to say, But the government's going to say, "You're either going to agree to this or "You're either going to agree to this or we're going to freeze you out of the US we're going to freeze you out of the US economy." And it doesn't matter what a economy." And it doesn't matter what a court says because they'll come up with court says because they'll come up with another justification. There'll be another justification. There'll be another one. There'll be a a a different another one. There'll be a a a different type of supply chain risk. There'll be type of supply chain risk. There'll be it'll be it'll be endless until they it'll be it'll be endless until they bend to the will, I think. bend to the will, I think. >> Yeah. But you may be right in terms of >> Yeah. But you may be right in terms of what they the government will do. But I what they the government will do. But I just, as I say, having been critical just, as I say, having been critical last week, I want to say it's wrong last week, I want to say it's wrong to try and drive a widely successful to try and drive a widely successful American tech company out of a good slug American tech company out of a good slug of the economy simply because they don't of the economy simply because they don't want to serve this one particular need. want to serve this one particular need. And it's interesting if you read the And it's interesting if you read the complaint, a lot of what Tropic is complaint, a lot of what Tropic is talking about is literally their first talking about is literally their first amendment rights. This is not a amendment rights. This is not a contract. What they're basically saying contract. What they're basically saying is we on Tropic articulated our less is we on Tropic articulated our less than love for some of the things that than love for some of the things that the Department of War might use this the Department of War might use this technology for and you're trying to ruin technology for and you're trying to ruin our business simply because we use those our business simply because we use those words and that's our first amendment words and that's our first amendment right and that's unamerican. And so right and that's unamerican. And so while I think you are entirely correct, while I think you are entirely correct, it's a really tough position for it's a really tough position for entropic to be in. And I as I said many entropic to be in. And I as I said many I don't know if they should depict this I don't know if they should depict this fight. I also think it's particularly fight. I also think it's particularly unfair of the US government to try and unfair of the US government to try and be this sweeping in their actions be this sweeping in their actions against what is one of the great against what is one of the great American success stories. If AI really American success stories. If AI really is all about the leading edge of the is all about the leading edge of the economy, right, it's probably a mistake economy, right, it's probably a mistake to pound the crap out of one of the two to pound the crap out of one of the two leading companies in that space simply leading companies in that space simply because at the margin you find them because at the margin you find them slightly sanctimonious, which many slightly sanctimonious, which many people do, and you don't like their people do, and you don't like their politics. you don't have to buy from politics. you don't have to buy from them and you know put your $200 million them and you know put your $200 million in in another place maybe don't let them in in another place maybe don't let them into department war at all but stop into department war at all but stop trying to cut them off at the knees trying to cut them off at the knees across the entire B2B infrastructure I across the entire B2B infrastructure I think it's a little bit of an overreach think it's a little bit of an overreach but I think you're right Jason me but I think you're right Jason me thinking that is very different than thinking that is very different than them changing their mind there's a style them changing their mind there's a style in the administration that's prone to in the administration that's prone to overreach and I'm sure Antropic deeply overreach and I'm sure Antropic deeply regrets getting down in the mud pit regrets getting down in the mud pit wrestling with this particular opponent wrestling with this particular opponent cuz it sucks. cuz it sucks. >> What actually happens here like >> What actually happens here like realistically years time does one cow realistically years time does one cow and give up play out the realities for and give up play out the realities for me? >> I think the interesting thing I I I >> I think the interesting thing I I I think on the merits of the lawsuit that think on the merits of the lawsuit that I think Antropic will probably prevail I think Antropic will probably prevail and may even prevail quickly on some of and may even prevail quickly on some of the you know I think if I read the the you know I think if I read the lawsuit last I think they've actually lawsuit last I think they've actually moved for immediate redress. I think, moved for immediate redress. I think, you know, to basically get it reversed. you know, to basically get it reversed. I think they might prevail on some of I think they might prevail on some of the things. If I was to be logical just the things. If I was to be logical just based on prior I they might prevail on based on prior I they might prevail on some of the law. They won't clearly get some of the law. They won't clearly get a $200 million revenue deal with the US a $200 million revenue deal with the US Department of War. But in a perfect Department of War. But in a perfect world, if they bend the knee, prevail on world, if they bend the knee, prevail on the law, what we've seen in multiple the law, what we've seen in multiple other situations is you end up with some other situations is you end up with some kind of, you know, acquiescence to the kind of, you know, acquiescence to the administration in return for leave us administration in return for leave us alone to pursue the rest of our daily alone to pursue the rest of our daily business, our B2B business. We're not business, our B2B business. We're not going to say, the administration is not going to say, the administration is not going to be saying to Microsoft, hey, if going to be saying to Microsoft, hey, if you use Entropic anywhere, you don't get you use Entropic anywhere, you don't get any government business, which is the any government business, which is the most overreaching version of this. And most overreaching version of this. And in return for that entropic, we'll in return for that entropic, we'll probably have to bend the knee and be probably have to bend the knee and be slightly supplicant. That's my gut. slightly supplicant. That's my gut. They'll win the law just like many of They'll win the law just like many of the other institutions have won some of the other institutions have won some of