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Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
>> The Joe Rogan Experience.
>> The Joe Rogan Experience.
>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
NIGHT. All day.
>> Mr. Paul. So good to see you again.
>> Mr. Paul. So good to see you again.
>> Hey, good to be back.
>> Hey, good to be back.
>> Consciousness. So, um, this new book,
>> Consciousness. So, um, this new book,
what inspired it? What what got you to I
what inspired it? What what got you to I
mean, you you've kind of explored
mean, you you've kind of explored
consciousness a little bit with your
consciousness a little bit with your
>> psychedelic book. Yeah. How to change
>> psychedelic book. Yeah. How to change
your mind. Well, actually this book was
your mind. Well, actually this book was
inspired by the research I did for that
inspired by the research I did for that
book. Um, as you know, I had several uh
book. Um, as you know, I had several uh
research trips. Um, and uh,
research trips. Um, and uh,
>> do you do air quotes when you say
>> do you do air quotes when you say
research?
>> Yes.
And I um, and two things happened that
And I um, and two things happened that
were really interesting. One is there's
were really interesting. One is there's
something about psychedelics that makes
something about psychedelics that makes
you think about consciousness. it, you
you think about consciousness. it, you
know, it's like smudging the windscreen,
know, it's like smudging the windscreen,
the windshield that you normally is
the windshield that you normally is
perfectly transparent and you see the
perfectly transparent and you see the
world through. Suddenly it's like
world through. Suddenly it's like
different and you realize there's
different and you realize there's
something between me and the world and
something between me and the world and
what is it? And that's consciousness.
what is it? And that's consciousness.
And so like a lot of people have who've
And so like a lot of people have who've
done psychedelics, you start wondering
done psychedelics, you start wondering
about this mystery. Why is it this way,
about this mystery. Why is it this way,
not that way? So that was one
not that way? So that was one
experience. The other was I had an
experience. The other was I had an
experience in my garden in Connecticut
experience in my garden in Connecticut
where we have a house of um uh walking
where we have a house of um uh walking
through my garden and getting the
through my garden and getting the
powerful impression that the plants were
powerful impression that the plants were
conscious and that these I remember
conscious and that these I remember
these this particular it was a plume
these this particular it was a plume
poppy or several plume poppies and they
poppy or several plume poppies and they
were like returning my gaze. They were
were like returning my gaze. They were
very benevolent. They were, you know,
very benevolent. They were, you know,
putting out positive vibes,
putting out positive vibes,
but like they were conscious, much more
but like they were conscious, much more
alive than they had ever been. And like
alive than they had ever been. And like
a lot of insights on psychedelics, I
a lot of insights on psychedelics, I
didn't know what to do with it. Like, is
didn't know what to do with it. Like, is
it true? Is it just a drug thing? You
it true? Is it just a drug thing? You
know, what is it? Um, but I decided it'd
know, what is it? Um, but I decided it'd
be interesting to find out. And uh I
be interesting to find out. And uh I
consulted a couple people, scientists,
consulted a couple people, scientists,
and said, "What do you do with an
and said, "What do you do with an
insight like that?" And they said,
insight like that?" And they said,
"Well, you test it against other ways of
"Well, you test it against other ways of
knowing, including scientific ways of
knowing, including scientific ways of
knowing." And that led me down this uh
knowing." And that led me down this uh
really interesting path uh exploring
really interesting path uh exploring
plant intelligence and plant
plant intelligence and plant
consciousness. So basically it yeah the
consciousness. So basically it yeah the
book grew out of the psychedelic
book grew out of the psychedelic
experiences and some meditation
experiences and some meditation
experience. Meditation also has a way of
experience. Meditation also has a way of
making you like hyper aware of how
making you like hyper aware of how
strange your thoughts are. Where are
strange your thoughts are. Where are
they coming from? Who's thinking them?
they coming from? Who's thinking them?
>> So there's a bunch of different schools
>> So there's a bunch of different schools
of thought when it comes to
of thought when it comes to
consciousness, right? There's one like
consciousness, right? There's one like
the Rupert Sheldrake thing that sort of
the Rupert Sheldrake thing that sort of
everything has consciousness and there's
everything has consciousness and there's
the sort of
the sort of
rational scientists that believe it
rational scientists that believe it
exists somewhere in the mind. I don't in
exists somewhere in the mind. I don't in
the brain.
the brain.
>> Yeah, in the brain, excuse me. And then
>> Yeah, in the brain, excuse me. And then
there's people that think that the brain
there's people that think that the brain
is essentially just an antenna,
is essentially just an antenna,
>> right?
>> That's tuning in to the greater
>> That's tuning in to the greater
consciousness of whatever it is that's
consciousness of whatever it is that's
out there.
out there.
>> Yeah. Do you have any one of them that
>> Yeah. Do you have any one of them that
you hold
you hold
>> or they're all equally plausible? I, you
>> or they're all equally plausible? I, you
know, I went into the experience
know, I went into the experience
assuming because this is what most
assuming because this is what most
scientists assume that somehow a certain
scientists assume that somehow a certain
arrangement of neurons in the brain
arrangement of neurons in the brain
generates consciousness, you know,
generates consciousness, you know,
subjective experience. But no one's been
subjective experience. But no one's been
able to show that. We've gotten nowhere
able to show that. We've gotten nowhere
in that effort to, you know, we can we
in that effort to, you know, we can we
we might correlate certain parts of the
we might correlate certain parts of the
brain with consciousness, but we don't
brain with consciousness, but we don't
understand how three pounds of matter
understand how three pounds of matter
could generate the feeling of being you.
could generate the feeling of being you.
>> You talk about it in your book where the
>> You talk about it in your book where the
the two gentlemen who had the bat.
the two gentlemen who had the bat.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um that was Kristoff Ko, who's a a a
>> Um that was Kristoff Ko, who's a a a
great brain scientist, and David
great brain scientist, and David
Chomers, who's a philosopher. And uh
Chomers, who's a philosopher. And uh
this goes back to like in the early 90s.
this goes back to like in the early 90s.
They were getting drunk in a bar in
They were getting drunk in a bar in
Bremen, Germany. And uh Kristoff Ko had
Bremen, Germany. And uh Kristoff Ko had
had really was at the beginning of the
had really was at the beginning of the
modern scientific exploration of
modern scientific exploration of
consciousness. And he was working with
consciousness. And he was working with
Francis Crick who had just come off of a
Francis Crick who had just come off of a
Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA.
Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA.
And Crick, who is like the most famous
And Crick, who is like the most famous
scientist in the world at the time, um
scientist in the world at the time, um
thought, well, the same kind of
thought, well, the same kind of
reductive science that discovered the
reductive science that discovered the
double helix DNA and explained heredity,
double helix DNA and explained heredity,
um I'm going to do that for
um I'm going to do that for
consciousness. He's very arrogant man,
consciousness. He's very arrogant man,
and he he thought it just, you know, no
and he he thought it just, you know, no
problem. Um and Crick was kind of his
problem. Um and Crick was kind of his
sidekick. I'm sorry. Uh Ko was his
sidekick. I'm sorry. Uh Ko was his
sidekick. And so Ko who shared that kind
sidekick. And so Ko who shared that kind
of confidence made this bet with
of confidence made this bet with
Chomemers that they would find the
Chomemers that they would find the
neural coralates the parts of the brain
neural coralates the parts of the brain
that are responsible for consciousness
that are responsible for consciousness
within 25 years.
within 25 years.
That was 25 years 27 years ago now. And
That was 25 years 27 years ago now. And
uh Chomers won the bet. Chomers is
uh Chomers won the bet. Chomers is
famous for um coining the term the hard
famous for um coining the term the hard
problem to you know to um describe the
problem to you know to um describe the
whole effort to figure out
whole effort to figure out
consciousness. And it's a hard problem
consciousness. And it's a hard problem
for a lot of reasons. Um I mean it is
for a lot of reasons. Um I mean it is
one of the biggest mysteries in the
one of the biggest mysteries in the
universe. I mean how consciousness come
universe. I mean how consciousness come
came to be. Did it evolve? Was it always
came to be. Did it evolve? Was it always
here? Um but he his his point was that
here? Um but he his his point was that
our science is based on third person
our science is based on third person
objective quantifiable measurements and
objective quantifiable measurements and
consciousness is fundamentally a
consciousness is fundamentally a
subjective first person experience. So
subjective first person experience. So
how does that those tools reach in and
how does that those tools reach in and
say any anything of value about
say any anything of value about
consciousness? So he said you know there
consciousness? So he said you know there
easy problems of consciousness we can
easy problems of consciousness we can
figure out like perception um emotion
figure out like perception um emotion
things like that but but there is this
things like that but but there is this
hard problem how do you get from matter
hard problem how do you get from matter
to mind and uh he won the bet. M
to mind and uh he won the bet. M
>> there was a ceremony I went to a couple
>> there was a ceremony I went to a couple
years ago at NYU and uh uh Ko presented
years ago at NYU and uh uh Ko presented
Chomemers with a case of very fine
Chomemers with a case of very fine
Madera wine and uh and renewed the bet.
Madera wine and uh and renewed the bet.
He said, "All right, in another 25
He said, "All right, in another 25
years."
>> That's optimistic. How old are these
>> That's optimistic. How old are these
gentlemen?
>> Ko is in his late 60s, so we'll see if
>> Ko is in his late 60s, so we'll see if
he's around for this. But uh and Chmer
he's around for this. But uh and Chmer
is a little bit younger.
is a little bit younger.
Um it's it's such an interesting thought
Um it's it's such an interesting thought
because we know that the mind contains
because we know that the mind contains
if damaged right it we know that there's
if damaged right it we know that there's
certain aspects there's certain parts of
certain aspects there's certain parts of
the mind where like labbotoies for
the mind where like labbotoies for
instance we know that if we disturb it
instance we know that if we disturb it
it radically affects behavior. We know
it radically affects behavior. We know
that there's parts of the mind that you
that there's parts of the mind that you
can stimulate that can actually recall
can stimulate that can actually recall
memories. Yeah. Right. There's some some
memories. Yeah. Right. There's some some
weird stuff going on there. So we know
weird stuff going on there. So we know
it's somehow or another at least
it's somehow or another at least
functionally connected to consciousness.
functionally connected to consciousness.
>> Oh yeah, it's definitely a relationship.
>> Oh yeah, it's definitely a relationship.
But but
But but
>> if it's generating consciousness, that's
>> if it's generating consciousness, that's
one thing. But it could be, as you said
one thing. But it could be, as you said
earlier, it could be receiving
earlier, it could be receiving
consciousness.
>> And the same things would hold true that
>> And the same things would hold true that
if you damage parts of the brain,
if you damage parts of the brain,
>> sure. Yeah. Yeah. Damage signal
>> sure. Yeah. Yeah. Damage signal
television, right? Um
television, right? Um
>> so that that doesn't determine the truth
>> so that that doesn't determine the truth
of either theory. And then the other one
of either theory. And then the other one
is pansychism
is pansychism
which you were alluding to. I don't know
which you were alluding to. I don't know
if that's Rupert Sheldrake would he I
if that's Rupert Sheldrake would he I
think he would believe more in the field
think he would believe more in the field
of consciousness.
of consciousness.
>> Yeah. Right. He was a morphic resonance
>> Yeah. Right. He was a morphic resonance
guy but I think he also subscribed to
guy but I think he also subscribed to
this idea that things contain
this idea that things contain
consciousness. It's not his but you know
consciousness. It's not his but you know
what I mean. It's well it's been it's
what I mean. It's well it's been it's
pretty universal, right? There's a lot
pretty universal, right? There's a lot
of people that have subscribed to this
of people that have subscribed to this
idea that everything has consciousness.
idea that everything has consciousness.
>> Yeah. uh that that even the particles
>> Yeah. uh that that even the particles
that this table is made of have some
that this table is made of have some
insy little bit of of psyche. And the
insy little bit of of psyche. And the
challenge there is so that that solves
challenge there is so that that solves
the problem of how did it evolve? It
the problem of how did it evolve? It
didn't evolve. It was always here.
didn't evolve. It was always here.
>> But then you have this other problem
>> But then you have this other problem
like how well how do you take these if
like how well how do you take these if
every one of our cells is made of
every one of our cells is made of
particles that are conscious? How do you
particles that are conscious? How do you
combine them in such a way that you get
combine them in such a way that you get
the sort of consciousness we have?
the sort of consciousness we have?
>> Uh
>> it's called the combination problem and
>> it's called the combination problem and
nobody solved that. It's a, you know,
nobody solved that. It's a, you know,
it's a really deep mystery and uh this
it's a really deep mystery and uh this
is a this is an odd book in some ways in
is a this is an odd book in some ways in
that I don't know if this is very
that I don't know if this is very
selling, but you'll know less at the end
selling, but you'll know less at the end
than you do at the beginning,
than you do at the beginning,
>> but it's a fun ride.
>> but it's a fun ride.
>> Oh, it's Yeah, I think it's a great
>> Oh, it's Yeah, I think it's a great
ride. It was a great ride for me. I
ride. It was a great ride for me. I
learned so much.
learned so much.
>> Well, it's a fun ride to consider these
>> Well, it's a fun ride to consider these
things that no one can really figure out
things that no one can really figure out
or not yet.
or not yet.
>> Yeah. And also just to be put in touch
>> Yeah. And also just to be put in touch
with the fact you have this marvel going
with the fact you have this marvel going
on in your head all the time. You have a
on in your head all the time. You have a
voice in your head. You know, we're
voice in your head. You know, we're
talking to each other, but you've got
talking to each other, but you've got
another voice going on thinking what
another voice going on thinking what
you're going to ask the you know, what
you're going to ask the you know, what
the next question is,
the next question is,
>> maybe what you're going to have for
>> maybe what you're going to have for
dinner. You know, there's it's it's this
dinner. You know, there's it's it's this
amazing interior space we have.
amazing interior space we have.
>> Yeah.
>> And nobody understands how it came to
>> And nobody understands how it came to
be.
>> And he can manage it,
>> And he can manage it,
>> which is also interesting because like I
>> which is also interesting because like I
don't think about what I'm going to have
don't think about what I'm going to have
for dinner. That's that's the thing to
for dinner. That's that's the thing to
stay no about any of those things. It's
stay no about any of those things. It's
the way to stay locked in in a podcast.
the way to stay locked in in a podcast.
>> Yeah. That's true.
>> Yeah. That's true.
>> Only think because you can let your mind
>> Only think because you can let your mind
wander. Especially if someone on the
wander. Especially if someone on the
other side is boring.
other side is boring.
>> Yeah.
>> And then I'm like, "Oh no, this
>> And then I'm like, "Oh no, this
conversation's going to be pulling
conversation's going to be pulling
teeth." And then I start thinking about
teeth." And then I start thinking about
a new joke I'm working on or, oh, I got