JRE #2516 — Rowan Jacobsen

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I mean, great for an 87 year old. Yeah, look at him still tan. How does he shiny? What a weird thing to be known for. He's the guy who gets tan. You know what I'm saying?

I mean, try to remember a role that he played. That's true. I I think he was Dracula in some bad 1970s like comedy. Look at that. That's a tan right there. Right.

So, how was he getting it though? Like I remember when I was a kid in Boston, a lot of people use tanning beds, especially in the winter time. And they still do. Like that those are actually like on the rise. And they do. They seem to raise your risk of melanoma for sure.

There you go. That's how he did it. Ah, look. He's got a reflect tan thing. So, he was just out there getting sunlight all the time. And he didn't look bad.

That's you know that that's a that's a weird one, right? He claims he's never had skin cancer, I think. Well, he probably was doing it so often that his body was prepared for it, right? Look at that photo of him with that lady in the corner. Yeah, look at that. That's nuts.

See, that's the thing. I think um like if you're getting that regular dosage, your body is producing all of these compounds whose entire job is to make sure your cells don't turn cancerous because you know living things have been working on this for 500 million years. Like they've been get hammered by the sun every day and they got to deal with it, right? So, it's when uh it seems like when your skin is totally unprepared and you shock it with a like a massive dose that that it's not ready for, uh then then you're in trouble. Like that's the kind of thing that triggers trouble. Was there any push back on this research?

Like when when you first started examining this and realizing that sun exposure has a lot of benefits, were any dermatologists saying, "Hey, this is dangerous information. And you shouldn't say this. Hell yeah. I've been denounced multiple times by the American Academy of Dermatology. Like officially, they send an official letter when I write an article and they say nobody should be getting any sun exposure. That's their opinion.

No one should be getting any sun exposure regardless of the benefits, the vitamin D, the no sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or, you know, clothing. Wow. Oh, and if if that makes you vitamin D deficient, take a pill. So that's what that's what needs to change because those pills haven't panned out in tests. They don't work like natural D does for whatever reason. Really?

Yeah. They don't work at all. What do you mean? So, everyone thought like back in like the 80s uh 90s, everyone started noticing, scientists started noticing that uh people who naturally had lower amounts of vitamin D in their blood had um higher rates of all like the classic chronic diseases. So, I started thinking, okay, vitamin D, it's like a magic uh pill almost. It'll cure it'll reduce everyone's risk of all these diseases if we raise their rates of D.

So they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are still like the number one supplement in the world. I take it. Um, so then they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help. Huge, huge clinical trials. Tens of thousands of people, follow-ups that went out went for many years. None of them showed a benefit.

No benefit in terms of your immune response. No benefit for any condition. Now, did they take vitamin D along with vitamin K2 and with magnesium? Because that's what's recommended. So, I don't I mean, there were a bunch of different apparently vitamin D by itself is not effective that you need vitamin D with K2 and magnesium. And I think there might be another one.

What? See, put that into perplexity, please. See, but it says like what are the benefits of vitamin D and what should it be taken with? Because I think magnesium and K2 are the big ones and that together they have a sort of a synergistic effect. Yeah. And that that could be like Yeah, I'd be curious.

Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself the body has a problem absorbing it. It's like there's a lot of things like that. Like zinc is like that. You need an ionaphor to absorb zinc so you take it with corsetin. Yeah. Well, one thing like D, you know, the way you it naturally comes in through the skin and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds, right?

Right. And so, yeah, I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when it's combined with the right things. But D from the sun has always been known as the best way to get it. Like the best way to get vitamin D, the most effective, the healthiest way is through sun exposure. Yeah. Like that's that's how the design is supposed to work.

Perplexi says vitamin D helps your body absorb calcium, build strong bones and teeth, support muscles and nerves, plays a key role in immune function. It's best absorbed when taken with a meal or a snack that contains some fat and offered paired with calcium for bone health. Um what? So please put in what are the benefits of vitamin D taken with K2 and magnesium. See if it says that because this is what my doctor who is a vitamin specialist recommends benefits when taken with K2 and magnesium. Okay.

Taking vitamin D together with uh vitamin K2 and magnesium can make each of them work more effectively, especially for bones and heart as long as the doses are appropriate for you. The trio mainly improves how your body handles calcium. Interesting. D helps you absorb it. Magnesium uh helps activate D and K2 helps send calcium into bones instead of arteries. D increases calcium absorption from your gut and supports bone, muscle, and immune function.

Magnesium required to activate vitamin D. Low magnesium can blunt vitamin D's effect and also directly support bone structure and many enzymes. K2 activates proteins that move calcium into bones and teeth and keep it out of the arteries and soft tissues, helping bone and cardiovascular health. The potential benefits of the combo, better bone support, heart and artery protection, more uh efficient vitamin D use. Okay, so the doctor is correct. So maybe that's the problem is that these people were taking it with low magnesium, low calcium, didn't have K2.

Yeah. Although I'd be cur like I'd be curious if um like if uh there was an effect on um disease incidents for that combination. I don't I don't know because the D on its own Yeah. didn't show any any effect. But sun exposure, let's put that in. Does vitamin D taken on its own have any health benefits?

Let's see what it says to that because I I'd never heard that that D on its own was not effective at all. I've just heard that it was minimally effective that you had to take it with other It seems like it only helps people who have who are really deficient. Like if you're if you're super low like below like 16 nos per milliliter um then probably it's a good idea. But like for people who already had like at least 20 nanogs per milliliter, it didn't seem to have any of these benefits that they were seeing in people who naturally had high rates through answered it the way you're looking for It says, "Yes, vitamin D on its own has several wellproven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and immunity." Just like a general answer, huh? Bone strength and fracture prevention, muscle function, adequate. I didn't add own.

Sorry. What's that? I didn't I missed the word own taken on it. On its own. Try the answer weird. So, let's see.

Yes. Has clear proven benefits especially for bones, muscles, and correcting deficiency. Yeah. So that's going to be for people who have super low levels. Mhm. Preventing ricketetts.

There it is. Yeah. But so they they had thought that it might reduce incidence of all these other diseases based on what they're seeing for people who naturally had high levels through sun exposure and it didn't. Um so then people who had high levels through sun exposure. Yeah. So so because your your natural level of vitamin D is sort of a direct like meter of how much Right.

But this is natural level. You're not talking about supplementation. Right. Right. So that was why like people who had high levels of D without supplementation have lower rates of like every disease you can think of. Um so the hope was that raising everyone's D to those levels would would have the same effect.

Uh and it didn't like New England Journal of Medicine did a actually did a editorial in 2022 saying stop prescribing D. It doesn't work. um which is God that seems incorrect though because if you're taking it with magnesium and K2 it seems that they do work synergistically and there seems to be proven health benefits that one of the problems I think is like I I I think people generally want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason. Mhm. It's kind of a weird thing like they want to dismiss it. Like I had a doctor once that told me, "Don't bother taking vitamins.

Just uh eat a balanced diet." And I was like, "Look at you." And the guy looked like [ __ ] He didn't look as good as you, right? You look terrible. Doctors. Yeah. I'm amazed how poor what poor health they generally like seem to I can't take it. I mean, it's so hard to take seriously a guy with a gut when little just he looked terrible.

And he was telling me that I just need a healthy diet. And I'm like, okay, I do have a healthy diet, but also I feel different when I take vitamins and my blood work re reflects that. Yeah, I noticed that with when I was I was I started going to all the conferences of the sun researchers and they're all in like the basement of hotels and those guys all are as pacy as it gets. Like do none of you guys like you know practice what you preach? Really? How strange is it that human beings with all of our knowledge with I mean obviously there's much more to learn we're still confused about how we interact with our environment.

Yeah, absolutely 100%. With sun which seems to be like it's there. It's it's everywhere. It's like you're always in the sun in normal in in the normal world environment where human outside of cities and all that stuff. That's It seems like we would have an understanding of what happens when you're interacting with sun. Yeah.

And light period. Like light of all kinds. Like it seems like there's this sense in biology that light didn't matter. It's like just ephemeral. Um which you know the quantum physicist 100 years ago understood that light and matter are just like two halves of the same coin, right? And that light totally affects the behavior of molecules.

We're made of molecules. Light's going to matter. So, I actually think like that's where I eventually got to with the book. I was like, we need to think about our light diets and our like lightcapes that we're, you know, surrounding ourselves with like more seriously than we have. Well, it seems like your work is based entirely on the data. So, what did these dermatologists have to say about the data?

if they're denouncing you and they're saying that, you know, this guy should not be listened to, the things you're saying are dangerous. Like, but you're talking about data, so I don't understand how they can just make those flat statements like that, right? And what I think we just need to have a conversation about the data and you know, there's no like right answer ahead of time, but they don't uh like their job is to prevent skin cancer. So, if you if that's your only job, you're going to tell people stay out of the sunlight forever. Forever, right? And no one can call you on that.

No one can say, "Hey, like I got skin cancer. It's your fault." Right? But doesn't sun exposure improve cardiovascular health and lower blood pressure? And isn't cardiovascular disease a far more dangerous problem than skin cancer in terms of numbers? It's number one 20 million deaths a year, cardia. So anything that moves the needle on that is awesome, you know, and it does and it seems to like all the studies show it does.

Um and they're but they're all observational studies right you look at populations you're like oh these people have more sun exposure lower blood pressure lower rates of cardiovascular disease but then you know the other side will say you know correlation does not prove causation like prove show us that it's you know do do your giant clinical study where you stick half the people in the sunlight and they live longer which is not going to happen right yeah but it's like are they willing to have a conversation with you. They're not they're not willing to they don't want to look outside of the sun and uh skin cancer question like they're not willing to entertain any of the other uh benefits that are outside of their field. So there's got to be somebody out there who can be the generalist who can like think about it holistically. That seems so ignorant. It's it's the it's the state of science now. Like the science is a is, you know, like a field of micro specialties.

Would you like some coffee? Yeah, I'll take a little. That looks good when you're pouring it. It's also a very shiny uh press. Oh, yeah. Cheers, sir.

Cheers. Is coffee good for you? Coffee is awesome for Coffee is shockingly good for me. Talk to me. Let's go. It's It is [ __ ] crazy how good coffee is for you.

I've I've been like startled by the like power of the evidence. Yeah. Uh I've read both. I've read It's Bad for You and I dismissed it because uh I I'm biased and I love coffee and uh I just I just it it just tastes too good. It feels too good. I like it.

It's um but I've read a lot of benefits about it. I think it's the best possible supplement. Really? You think of it as a supplement? I it's the be and I think it's all due to mitochondrial function. I think uh it it makes your mitochondria just spin, you know.

And is it particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself? Is the coffee bean, you know? I mean, caffeine I think it's caffeine, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing because, you know, like tea doesn't seem to quite like deliver the goods like like coffee does. No. Um but caffeine is actually um the plants are making it to kill bugs. Right.

Right. Because it makes the bugs mitochondria run out of control and they basically like blow up. Um it does that to us, but we have these other like like governors like that come in and and slow down that ramp up. So we get the nice ramp up without the explosion. So So it's good. Um so it makes it you know we we produce energy more efficiently with less uh wear and tear.

That's all I need to hear. I'm in. I just love coffee. I'm not giving it up. But I've heard many people say that Michael Pollen had a really interesting anecdote. Uh he laid off coffee for I think three or four months as an experiment and then he had a cup of coffee and he said it was like taking a psychedelic.

He said, "I just felt so amazing and it the the effect was so profound." He said, "I really wanted to do it only that way where I only take it, you know, very rarely because but then I fell right back into my life." Right back. Yeah. Like I remember that article. It was great. And also he said none of the like the um caffeine researchers touch the stuff. I'm like that's not good.

Um but yeah, he uh he went right back to it and I think he's a a proud coffee drinker. Yeah, he is. He went right back to it. But um so have you had any conversations with these dermatologists that are denouncing you? No, but I'd like to actually I think uh are they willing or is have they avoided them? They have so far really avoided like they they they just say you know we're not ready to look at any of that research.

That's so weird. I think it's going to change. I think actually um like like I said I think light medicine is actually going to become very important in the next 10 20 years and dermatologists are kind of positioned to be like the leaders on that stuff because like uh skin is the primary like interface with light for our bodies and you know they should be experts on all this um you you know red light therapy is a big thing now um and dermatologists are doing that uh even though the evidence isn't great for that but I think there's probably something there. Um, but they should basically I think they need to be thinking more about all these different wavelengths of light as healing modalities and how to, you know, work them into like regular like programs. I've talked about this before, so I apologize to anybody listening, but I've essentially completely stopped my macular degeneration with red light therapy. Wow.

Yeah. Not just stopped it, but reversed it. Like I don't need reading glasses anymore. I've been using a red light bed for about two years now. And from the time I started using it, within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so Gary Breco was on the podcast and he explained it to me.

And so I I went out and bought one of these really expensive, it's like a tanning bed, this thing you lie in. And I do it three times a week for 20 minutes. So all over. Yep. Naked. Just lie down in there.

And I keep my eyes open. And uh they you know I went to a tanning bed once, not a tanning bed, a red light bed once at uh the health clinic and they were like got to wear these goggles and make sure you close your eyes before the light goes on. I was like okay I did all that and apparently there's some benefit that even when blindfolded it in increases your vision. Yeah, for sure. It's um and I again I think mitochondria are part of the answer that there's a guy at uh University College London Glenn Jeffrey who this is his whole field um optometry and uh red light and he has shown in multiple different animals including humans that um red light improves mitochondrial function and and improves vision. Yeah.

I mean I'm 58 and for me to be 56 and saying I'm [ __ ] I I I had these [ __ ] things everywhere. I had these all these reading glasses. I had them all over my house. I'd gotten up to 3X. These are the cheap Amazon ones. I had a nice pair, but I keep losing them.

So, I just I went out and bought cheap ones. They seem to work. And it was just fine for looking at a computer, you know, reading my emails, reading my phone, and I needed them to read my phone. I don't need them anymore, like at all. I don't use them anymore. My my vision's not perfect.

It's not as good as it was when I was 20, but it's way better than it was when I was 56. And I Yeah, I think so. The um the uh in the the mitochondria in the eyes have to fire faster than any mitochondria anywhere else in the body. The eyes burn through energy like like no other cells. Um because it's like, you know, it's kind of the toughest task. It's like they got to go super fast.

Um, so they, yeah, they those mitochondria need to be on top of their game and it seems like red light benefits that in particular, but seems so close-minded that these dermatologists aren't willing to say maybe we're looking at just insufficient amount of data. Maybe we're looking at this wrong. Maybe the whole thing is much more nuanced and maybe there's benefits if done correctly. I just don't understand why they're not will if there's all this data which clearly you show in your book that there's a tremendous amount of data why you know like um so there's this like saying attributed to Max Plunk who's this like quantum physicist science advances one funeral at a time right so I think we got to let the old guard like die off a little bit but I I guarantee there's a young generation coming in who's going to be really interested in light and how they can use it. Oh certainly. Well, I think there's so many conversations available online now from actual researchers and people that have put in the time and put in the work and explored things from this position that like, hey, maybe the old guard are not correct.

And the data seems to show that that's true. Yeah. And it's fun. I mean, playing with light, it's super fun. So, like, this is a way you can you can like make your world a little bit richer is starting to think about this stuff. Well, it's also like, don't you want to be informed?

And if there's if we do understand that it has an effect on mitochondria and there is all this evidence that red light seems to have some benefits like wouldn't I just don't understand how someone could be an expert in skin and ignore that. Well, I think that and they'll be they won't object to the red there. Some of them are using red light therapy because there's no risk of skin cancer for red. It's only the UV and maybe a little bit of the blue that contributes to skin cancer. So that it's the UV where where they get a little wigged out. Yeah.

But but even that it seems like there's a like in your book you show there's a tremendous amount of data there's health benefits to it. So I just don't understand and that data is it's comes from all different other fields like immunology, cardiology. So, and like scientists are sort of increasingly like hesitant to trespass on their other other domains, right? You know, like they're not going to walk across campus to the uh the other building. Mhm. Anymore.

Yeah. But that needs to change, you know. Yeah. We've had those discussions too with scientists that are super frustrated especially when they try to get interdisciplinary groups together to study one particular thing and everyone's resisting because they have their own work that they're working on and they don't want to get involved and it's just like guys this is what you're here for. There's not a lot of scientists. You got to do your job because like you're the only ones that are doing it.

There's without you guys we're [ __ ] And if you're out there relying on old insufficient data or you know you have this very small data set that shows that there's negative outcomes to sunlight and so you just throw the baby out with the bathwater like you're doing the whole field a massive disservice. And the other part of it is that um science it's it's sort of very self-reinforcing. It's all it's all grant-based essentially. Like if you're a scientist, you want to do a study, you have to apply for a grant to get the money to do the study, right? And there's generally a handful of entities that are like handing out the grant money and it's the old guys waiting to die um who are going to approve what they think is the truth, but they're they're going to fund the study that fits with what they already know about the world. So, it's this kind of crazy system where the only way you can get money to do a study is if you're already telling them what they know.

Right. Right. So, it's very difficult to get funded to do something that goes against the grain increasingly so and that's a problem. And so much of it is dependent upon the ego of the people that are at the top of the organization. Ego is definitely part of it. It's a giant part of it because if they've based their entire career on telling you one thing that turns out to be incorrect, they're very reluctant to correct themselves.

Yeah. That there's not just a It's very rare to find the individual who's well known in the field and is eager to selforrect, you know. So, have you had any conversations with any of these dermatologists? Uh, no, but I'd love to. Not one? That seems crazy.

Have you reached out to any of them? I have. When I've reached out and I get the boilerplate like we don't want anyone in the sun, take your D pills. Doesn't matter. Uh well, and the one that really um that I think has got to change is the skin color question because fine to to you know go with the the re recommendations for avoiding sun for people with fair skin, but for people with dark skin who have almost no risk from uh the from sun induced skin cancer and can benefit hugely from like things that will lower blood pressure and lower lower cardiovascular disease. like it seems like you're not being fair to those people.

Not only that, it makes you feel better, which is very important just for sanity. I mean, that I think that gets underplayed like mood and happiness is kind of the whole deal, right? And there's just no question that uh sun exposure makes you happier. I spent a week uh with my friend Brian Callen and Steve Manella in Alaska and Prince Edwards Island and uh it rains there like 350 days a year and we got rained on for the entire week and then when I came back to LA uh I was driving around and the sun was magnificent. It felt so good. I stood outside I closed my eyes.

I like stretched my arms wide like I was just taking it all in. And I called my friend Steve up and I said, "Dude, because we were in the rain for like a week." I go, "I'm in LA right now in the sun and it feels amazing. I never felt the sun like this before." It's cuz like my body was saying, "You didn't get enough of this for a week. Now take it in and we're going to reward you with all these amazing endorphins and good feelings." It's like if that was a drug, that drug that I took, like if depressed people could take whatever I felt when I was out in the sun after a week in the rain, they would take it every day. They It would change the world. You like I could feel like this all the time.

And it went away, you know, it went away cuz LA, it's sunny all day long every day, right? So eventually I got accustomed to it. But that feeling that I get that I got after the week in the rain and coming back and just be like ah it was incredible. It was like a drug, an amazing drug, a happy drug. Yeah, it's a it's an awesome drug. And I I've felt it for sure.

You know, I especially like early spring if I leave Vermont and and I like have something in LA. I'm just like like why is everyone not just dancing on the streets? This feels so good, you But the problem is Los Angeles, they're so used to it. Yeah. They're they're so spoiled. Everyone there is so spoiled weatherwise.

It's the perfect weather on Earth. It's It's incredible. Especially if you live in like Malibu where it bar it barely even gets hot. So, you're dealing with that cool ocean breeze and it's sunny every day, you know, like Oh. Yeah. But how about here?

Like, do you end up spending a lot of time outside here or Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I do. But I'm outdoors all the time. I work out outside. I do a lot of farmers carries outside.

I I practice archery, so I shoot my bow outside every day and I love it. I It feel I feel better even when it's hot out. I don't mind because I'm really kind of accustomed to it because of sauna use. I use a sauna every day and I'm pretty religious about it. Um so my body's really acclimated to heat. So it doesn't really bother me that much.

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I just bring a big jug of 64 ouncez jug of water with ice and electrolytes and I just drink that while I'm out there. Yeah. So, I shoot my bow for an hour and a half, two hours and 105° and I'm fine. I love it. I actually love that too. Yeah.

Like as a kid in Florida, you know, we'd play basketball after school for hours in or in summer it would be we 105 degrees and then you just kind of turn the hose. You stick those in your mouth for quite a long time, you know. Yeah. I mean, it feels great. It's just you have to make sure you're not dehydrated and you have to make sure you don't burn. That's that's kind of all it is.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's all it seems to be. Um, but we do see like truckers that uh, have you ever seen those? You're talking about that famous photo.

Yeah, that is a crazy photo. Crazy photo. So, what we're referring to is there's a photo of this trucker and the left side of his face from the sun coming in from the window looks like he's 20 years older on his left side than it is on his right side. It's like It's like special effects. Somebody melted the left side of his face. What's that all about?

Yeah, there's the guy. That's literally nuts. Yeah, that's literally nuts. Like left side is just sloping off basically. His left side looks like a hundred-year-old man. Truck driver face behind the wheel driving a truck.

Damage typically limited to the left side of the face. So it's literally called truck driver face. Yeah. Now, so this that that that photo and that study got used to like scare the [ __ ] out of a lot of people, try to keep them out of the sun, especially people that are vain and don't want that [ __ ] up wrinkly face. This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley. You guys know I live a super busy lifestyle, so I need snacks that don't slow me down, and Paleo Valley is the perfect onthe-go snack.

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Go to paleo valley.com/roganogen and use the code roan. That's paleo valley.com/roganogen. Whoa, that's crazy. Look at the difference between Wow. That's literally bananas. What So what they're showing back and forth is uh they're just taking the skin from the left side of the face and switching sides.

So you can see how much damage he's received on that side, the driver's side. Yeah. And so there's a couple interesting things there. One, um that is shocking, but the question to ask is why doesn't every trucker look like that, right? Like if that's the problem, why does why did why him? like cuz I've been driving in a car for 45 years and you know my face is the same on the left as it is on the right kind of hanging in there.

But um but the other thing is window glass I think is actually a really interesting problem to talk about. Yeah. Um because window glass blocks UVB but not UVA and there's two different wavelengths of UV. The UVB is the super high energy one. UVA is a little bit low lower. It's kind of on the way to blue.

Um, and they used to think back in the day that UVB was the only one that caused skin cancer. And those old sunscreens that we used in the 70s and 80s only blocked UVB. Window glass blocks UVB blocks only part of the UVA. So, anytime you're driving or you're hanging out in a window in your house, you're getting a bunch of UVA. You're not going to burn because UVB is the one that causes burning, but you're still going to get a bunch of UVA, which they figured out like in the 90s does cause skin cancer. Oh, wow.

So, so sun through the windows, sun through the windows is not as good as sun outside. Um, it it blocks the UVB, but the UVA comes through, but you'll never you'll never have a burn reaction because of it. So, but you might be getting damaged. Yeah. And so like uh in the in the US people get slightly more slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the left side of their body. In the UK they get slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the right side of aha because they drive on the opposite side of the road.

Yeah. So window glass is slightly slightly it's like 52 48. It's not not huge. Okay. But it's statistically significant. Statistically significant.

Yeah. Huh. So, do you think it's this guy's particular genes? There must be something weird about that guy, right? Well, how many instances of truck driver face do they have? I just Googled the the condition, and it's only him coming up in the photos.

So, this is the thing. One lady, but I don't She clearly doesn't seem to have the same issue. I don't There's a lot of truck drivers that have been doing it for 50 years. That's not the same thing. Oh, that's not real. Is that real?

It's a different thing. She's got Something's wrong with her jaw. Oh, but it's coming up as the same uh condition. Unilateral derma dermat. I can't see. Oh, so she had some sort of cancer that made her way its way into her jaw.

But I can't I would have assumed that more cases would pop up, but it's literally just him. So that's the thing. It's the the real question is what's up with that dude. Yeah. Interesting. Different truck.

That's not the I don't think that's the same guy. No, it doesn't seem like the same person, but might be. It's hard to say. different lighting. But so the thing is if so those sunscreens that were acting kind of like window glass in the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s before we got the broadspectrum sunscreens, they're blocking the UVB. So you weren't going to ever burn.

And that's what SPF uh actually measures is how many more times you can be out in the sun without burning. So if you got but it's based totally on UVB. So if you got SPF 30, in theory, you can spend 30 times as long outside before you start to burn. That's a long time, right? Um, but all that time UVA is just pouring into you and they now know that UVA is the one that probably is most likely to cause melanoma. Oh, that's crazy.

Wow. So, sunscreen. Now, I use a natural sunscreen when I use it at all. It's the stuff that's like beef tallow based and has zinc in it. It's very white and obvious, you know. It's the the spray stuff goes on clear.

You can't even tell you have it on. Yeah. But it's very effective. But I'm always like super hesitant. I'm like, what what's in that stuff that we're going to find out 15 20 years from now? Like if it can block the sun.

So it's a chemical and you're spraying this chemical on an organ, which is your skin. So your your skin's absorbing it. I'm like, what what's going on there? And they used to say, oh, no, no, that it's not absorbed very much. And then the uh FDA CDC did studies a few years ago and discovered that it's absorbed at very large amounts like yes it it turns up at at high doses or or higher doses than they would like it to in blood, breast milk, urine, you name it. What specifically turns up and what's dangerous about it?

So they're suspected to be hormone disruptors. All those classic chemical filters like oxyenzone um there There isn't a there isn't much proof that they're uh dangerous in the amounts used, but they're they definitely are absorbed at much higher rates than we thought. And the FDA has refused to approve them as safe um pending more testing. And nobody's done the testing. Oh. But they're about to get phased out anyway.

like just as of a couple months ago um the uh the government changed the rules and is going to let in for the first time in 30 years new ingredients which they've been using in Europe and Asia and Australia for decades and the sunscreen companies have been asking to use them and haven't been allowed to but now they're finally going to get to use one like one of the main ones and what are these ingredients? So, it's called like Bemot Trizenol or something. Um, and there's another one that you see in the in Europe called like um Mexeril 400, but they're way better. Like basically US sunscreens are a generation behind everyone else because in the US sunscreens are regulated as overcounter drugs. Beotisenol. Yeah, highly effective broadspectctrum UV filtered blocks both UVA U and UVB.

Approved by FDA as overthec counter sunscreen ingredient in June of 2026. Oh wow. So this month just happened. Yeah. Celebrated for being highly photostable, doesn't break down the sun, transparent on the skin without leaving a white cast, and gentle on sensitive skin. So this is RFK Jr.

stuff. Yeah, this one looks really good. Um, so this other stuff that is has been in there, why didn't it get examined if Europe and Asia and all these other places were using these different safer versions? Yeah, they all bailed on it long ago. Um because it was all we had and um damn it, that drives me crazy. Yeah.

Well, so so it's because so FDA so in the US sunscreens are regulated as as drugs, overcounter drugs. So you have to do all this safety testing if you want to get a new ingredient in. Everywhere else they're just cosmetics, so you can use kind of whatever you want um with more minimal safety testing. So the the companies wanted to use the stuff in the US forever, but the FDA said, "Sure, just, you know, do the testing, but they didn't want to do it was too expensive to do the testing. They would have to test it on animals. They didn't want to get the blowback on that.

There are a bunch of reasons that they weren't willing to do it. Also, I think they're a little scared what they might find." Um, so anyway, so our our sunscreens have not been nearly as good as what's used elsewhere um in both in terms of performance and like maybe safety uh suspicions. So that that's going to change by the end of this year. It's going to get better. Well, that's good. Are there with the traditional sunscreen ingredients that we used to use, is there any negative health consequences of using them that they've shown?

Like is there any diseases that occur more readily or more frequently? Um, not that have been proven. There's like toxicologists are a little suspicious about some of them. Like they've definitely been shown to to mess up coral, right? Like people coral reefs, right? Yeah.

That's one of the things they found after CO, right? They used to think they used to think that it was the warming of the environment. This was one of the things that climate change people used to say. The climate change is what's destroying the coral reefs. We're lo and then it turns out actually it's all these people that have sunscreen all over their body and they jump in the ocean and they're essentially poisoning the reef. Yeah.

I mean it's all the above I'm pretty sure. But uh but yeah, the sunscreen at at that kind of concentration if you got a you know a bazillion snorkelers in the water can definitely mess up the car pretty bad. Yeah. Wasn't there some sort of a study that examined what happened to the reef after COVID? There was one particular roof reef that was in a this highly visited area where people would jump in and they showed a a massive increase in in the reef after co Yeah. Hawaii Hawaii banned use of those sunscreen.

A bunch of places banned uh banned those that style of sunscreen. Um but the uh but they they don't really check your bags though. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? When they say banned, like people are going to take it anyway, but it doesn't look like I don't think it has much impact on uh on us unless you're using a ton of it, which of course now some people are.

So, it's not great for you, but it's not the worst. Yeah. There's been a bunch of studies that just looked at like lifespan and sunscreen doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever, like positive or negative on lifespan. So, it just might have some sort of an impact on hormonal function. Yeah, it could. Well, um, endocrine disruption.

Endocrine disruption. There's a guy named Graham Peasley at Notre Dame who, um, found that, uh, many, many cosmetic products of all kinds are actually contaminated with forever chemicals. Um, and it's even if they don't have it on the ingredients, like anything that's like water resistant or super smooth, it's quite possibly going to have forever chemicals in it. And some of it is actually coming from the plastic containers cuz those get um they basically get like florinated with this like florine gas before they get anything in them, which is supposed to make them like a little smoother. the in inside of the containers, but it turns out that actually leaks forever chemicals into the product, whatever's in there. That's what he found.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, this is a problem with hot coffee when you're drinking it out of a paper cup. Very similar. Yeah. Yeah. People don't realize like the paper cup is not capable of keeping that liquid.

It would turn to mush. And the reason why it doesn't turn to mush is because there's essentially a condom like around the inside of the coffee cup. And you know, Paul Saladino broke a coffee cup down to show what it looks like on the inside. You're like, "Oh no, you're pouring hot liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do." And it's also like most coffee machines. Like a giant percentage of coffee machines have just plastic everywhere. I got rid of mine.

That's why we use French press at the studio. And I use that at home, too. And I have one of those little arrow presses to make an individual cup of coffee. Yeah. It's like the plastic is a real problem and heating it is terrible. We We know that about water bottles.

Like you're never supposed to drink out of a water bottle that you leave in the hot sun in your car. So now picture that bottle of sunscreen that's sitting in your car, right? Cooking. Yeah. And it and leeching into the the uh material. Yuck.

Yeah. Not good. People don't think of the skin as an organ. And um I was explaining to a friend of mine the other day, he was using um hand wash, that that [ __ ] hand sanitizer stuff. And I'm like, man, I don't think that's good for you. I'm like, I think if you want to wash your hands, you should just use soap and water.

And then I read this article about it. Like, oh yeah, that's a toxic chemical. like hand sanitizer when you're using it every day, you're essentially exposing your skin, your organ to this like what what exactly is in hand sanitizer and is it bad for you? Because I I remember this article, but I I just like went over the headline and briefly started reading it and then I I had to do something and I put a bookmark to it. I was going to go back to it later and I never did. Oh, okay.

I thought you were going to say like something happened to the bookmark. No, no, no, no, no. I just I never went back to it. But I remember during the COVID times, everybody was just like hand sanitizer everywhere. I'm like, I just don't think that can be good for you. I mean, anything that's antibiotic, right?

Anything that's killing biological life probably you want to be at least a little bit hesitant with. Mostly alcohol. Mostly alcohol. Well, even alcohol going through your skin like that. uh isopropyl alcohol sometimes used instead of or with ethanol similar levels and then this word benzol canonium chloride uh in many alcohol-free products. All right.

Um but see if you can find articles on the dangers of using hand sanitizer because this is what I had read briefly. Uh, people overuse it, you're going to [ __ ] up your skin biome. But I don't Yeah, that's what it's saying. Overuse. I just that's I just know that. I don't I know a guy's got um OCD and uh he's um you know hypochondriact a little bit and he uses hand sanitizer all the time.

It's kind of crazy. And uh a a friend of mine without knowing went to look at his house cuz his house was for sale. And he's looking at the house. He's like this very nice house. and he opens up a closet and one of the closets was filled with hand sanitizer and he got so freaked out he didn't want to live in the house anymore. He's like, I don't want to buy this house.

Like this guy like whatever weird thing he's possessed with that he needs 50,000 [ __ ] bottles of hand sanitizer. Issues are just overuse and then don't not use it on your hands obviously. Don't breathe it, don't drink it, right? Only use it on your hands. Yeah. But Jamie's right on the skin uh biome.

Skin biome turning out to be really important. Like there's um you know they call it the gut skin act a exis where your skin microbiome and your gut microbiome are like chatting all the time and you that you you can change the composition of your skin microbiome based on all kinds of stuff like products, sun exposure, you know, everything you do. Probiotics. Probiotics. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, in the jiu-jitsu world, um, in the the early 2000s, people started really getting into probiotics. They started really getting into acidophilus, yogurt, kimchi, fermented vegetables, and stuff like that just to prevent skin issues. Interesting. Because jiu-jitsu, because you're you're getting scratched up and you're rolling around and there's a lot of infections and a lot of people get not just infections like staff infection, but they also get ringorm and a bunch of stuff like that. And so some people started using antibacterial soap and the problem with that is it just nukes all the good flora of your skin. So then there's a company called defense soap and uh they developed a soap specifically for grapplers and this soap has tea tree oil and eucalyptus and it's very healthy for the skin.

So it it promotes healthy gut flora but it does kill all the cooties. It kills all the matte cooties. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's I think that's basically what you want. Like that microbiome, it can take a lot of natural uh, you know, abuse. It's there.

It, you know, it naturally lives on skin. So, it's it's usually getting like roughed up by the world. Mhm. But yeah, to chemicals that are too strong can take it out. And the gut flora is important as well is like you got to think of the whole thing as one sort of ecosystem. Your whole body, it all works together.

And if your gut biome is all [ __ ] up and you don't have healthy gut flora, it can affect all sorts of different issues. And yeah, it shows up on the skin for sure. That's that's well known. So when um you first started getting push back against this, did were you surprised? Did it upset you? Like what did it feel like to get attacked by dermatologists?

I am naturally conflict averse, right? So I was kind of do I even want to talk about this? But it was such interesting information I thought was important. So, I wanted to It started um I wrote an article for outside back in like 2018 and I titled it is sunscreen the new margarine, right? Oo. So, right there that's pushing buttons.

Yeah. I probably, you know, in retrospect, I don't push as many buttons today. I just point to the data. You just didn't like it. You didn't like the the response. Well, I mean, it got a massive resp.

It went truly, you know, viral, as they used to say. Um, but it it actually detracted like now I think I think those old sunscreens really were like margin detrimental like the ones that only blocked UVB. Um, so I think I kind of got it right but also it like the title detracted from the information in the article in a sense. But why? Because margin sucks. Margin sucks.

Those old sunscreens did suck. The new sunscreens are they're fine. But um so it's a good comparison. It turns out to have been Yeah. like the more we learn about those old sunscreens, the more it looks like a sort of like a catastrophic mistake that then got fixed. But uh but yeah, so that like I so now the books is out and suddenly I've got all these like beauty magazines contacting me and um they have this image of me as like you know the uniomber like hanging out hanging out in my cabin and firing off these missives.

Really? Yeah. From beauty magazines. They were nervous to talk to me because they thought I was going to be, you know, a cook. A cook. Yeah.

Wow. So the first So those is sunscreen the new margarine. So that was the first one. And what was the response to that? So like what do you remember the first like really negative response and how you felt about it? Um, so yeah, so there was an official letter from the the AAD, uh, like you know, we and you know, they're very they're very polite.

Um, but they're like, here we we think this is misrepresenting, you know, the the information. Um, and this and we think this is dangerous. If you're telling people that they might benefit from more sunlight, that's dangerous. So that's probably and then, you know, when that came in, I was like, so that needs to change. If if we have in our heads that exposure to any sunshine is dangerous, we you know we're not seeing the forest for the trees, we've lost the thread on this one. Uh so then so I did a bunch of other article I did one an article that focused specifically on the skin color issue like do people of color do we need to stop telling people of color that they need to protect themselves from the sun?

Um, and then I did a couple more recently uh for the Atlantic um just on um like what should recommendations be? How do we can we do recommendations that are not one-sizefits-all? Well, skin color in particular is one of the best signs of adaptation to environment. I mean, that's how human beings were able to get vitamin D from the sun in a place like Scotland. When people moved there, they got pale as [ __ ] you know? 100% makes sense.

Yeah. And you can track it. It's like like the gradations of lightning go with that move northward. So you could tell like white skin is like a desperate attempt to get enough light in a in a you know screwy northern environment. Right. But when those people that have ancestors from that screwy northern environment move to California or Arizona or Australia.

Yeah. And Australia is real bad, right? Because there's all the people that use hairspray in the 80s, they cause a [ __ ] giant hole in the ozone layer over Australia. Well, yeah, essentially. Yeah. Australia, when I was there, they have these uh signs on buses, like these warnings that show skin cancer, like these horrible lesions on people's faces and stuff, and it's just this warning to wear sunscreen, protect yourself.

They're right for that. Like that's the textbook case where you've got an a horrible mismatch between the population and the place like super super high levels of sunshine in Australia. Weak ozone like red heads from Scotland who like are trying to deal. So like their their skin cancer rays are literally like two or three times what they are anywhere else in the world. Wow. Now, how much of that is because of the skin color of the general Australian population other than the indigenous people and how much of it is because the ozone?

So, the ozone is is healing itself slowly. We're getting there. Um, so that's probably less of an issue now. It's really it's a really fair skinned population in a just like super bright intense environment. Um, so they do need to worry about it. But the the problem is the rest of the world has kind of set its like rules about sun exposure based on Australia.

What's interesting also about Australia is like I wonder how long it takes for human adaptation to start to show itself. Like do you think like in 100,000 years from now people that live in Australia will be dark? Well, you you um David Reich had that did that great episode with you, right? David Reich, he's the Harvard uh ancient DNA guy. Did we? No.

📋 한국어 요약 보기 →

So he So he just came out with a new study like had so many people on I can't remember who had on either. Um I was like if I didn't hear here what I hear anyway. Um might be Lex. It um it just uh that movement started f a few thousand years ago. Suddenly like the the that pale redhead gene came out of nowhere and like skyrocketed. So, it can change pretty quickly when the environmental factors change.

Really? That's that's only a few thousand years old. Um the the redheaded gene. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was kind of like lingering quietly in the background and then like maybe that's why gingers get so much hate because they're just brand new.

They are they are like the next new thing kind of. But yeah, four or 5 thousand years ago, it suddenly explodes in popularity, but in a very particular place in in Northern Europe. Oh, and most likely as a result to the environment. Yeah. For 100%. Wow.

So, I wonder how long it's going to take. I wonder if we could go into the future if the same population lives in Australia now. Well, I except here's the weird thing like so Australians versus UK, right? Similar genetics. Um, Australia, super high rates of skin cancer because of that sunny environment, but also way better lifespan than in the UK. Really?

So, skin cancer is a factor, but that sunlight is actually benefiting Australians more than it's hurting them compared to the UK. I wonder if a lot it's a wonder if that's a healthy user bias as well because one of the things about Australia is a lot of outdoor activities. A lot of people are doing stuff outside. Yeah. and a lot of activity period and that could be a factor and actually that's one thing I come you know come down to in the book is it's really hard to disentangle all of these factors but what's really obvious is just outside good too much inside bad so whatever like you don't even have to like break it down too much more outside covered up whatever you want is probably going to be good for you one of the things a friend of mine who's a doctor said that he when he was working in New York City in the wintertime, he would find people with undetectable levels of vitamin D. Yeah.

And he said it was a particular problem with people with darker skin. Because if you have darker skin, you're going to get less vitamin D from the sun for whatever exposure you do get. And then these people are all indoors all the time. Yeah. And that's a really bad formula. Like Yeah.

If you have dark skin, you need five to five to 10 times as much sunlight to make the same amount of vitamin D. M. So you're really, if you have really dark skin, you're kind of designed for a very bright, you know, tropical environment where you're where you're outside all the time. Outside all the time, you can handle 12 hours a day of sunshine. And in fact, you're going to benefit from it. You get moved to a really dark environment that that's not going to be good for you.

So you probably need to compensate in other ways. It's going to be very interesting when genetic engineering reaches a level where we can turn those things on and off in people. And how do people react to fair skinned people all of a sudden getting dark? Like like uh you know like well we are one race. We are it's we are the human race. There's a bunch of different ancestors where people came from different areas where they adapted to different environments.

But the reality is we're just human beings and we all started in Ethiopia and we spread out and that's just what we are. We are the result of whatever environment our ancestors evolved in. Yeah, totally. And with with skin tone, it's clearly like very very specific reactions to that environment and trying to figure out what's best in each situation. But there's so much racial identity that's tied that's tied to these characteristics of your appearance and where your ancestors are from. It's going to be very weird if all of a sudden you could like people get like dark thick curly hair and and there they used to be gingers.

I wonder how people are going to react to that. I mean it's coming, right? Like it's coming and bets are off. Yeah. I just wonder how many people are going to be claiming cultural or racial appropriation with people just deciding to have a a healthier skin tone that protects him from the sun more. Oh, I see where he go.

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Um like that guy with the melanitan. I wonder I wonder if anybody got mad at him, right? Right. Like like what are you supposed to look like?

Mhm. Yeah. What are you supposed to look like? Yeah. Yeah. There was a lady that was on a television show once that was turning herself black.

It was in the UK. And this lady looked, she looked like she had other issues. She had giant breast implants. She looked like a cook. Bunch of plastic surgery. But she was dark as a date.

Like that lady. That's a white lady. So that's what she used to look like. And she's getting her boobs bigger and bigger. She wants them bigger. And so look, she keeps getting That's a little too far.

Maybe. Maybe. Wow. That's her. That's her. So, what did she do via intense use of tanning injections?

Yeah. So, she's she's the ultimate melanitan hero. Wow. Um I mean that guy that lady got like Cameroon dark. Like look at that photo again. Go back to that video.

Like that's crazy. That is crazy. That's crazy. I I don't know. Maybe if you're in Australia it works for you. Uh maybe.

Well, it would, right? It would protect because it is melanin, but obviously she's got she's got other things going on like you Yeah, at some point you might might might have too much mel. Well, so here's the funny thing about melanin as well. Like so it's made by our melanocytes um which are what can become melanoma if they get screwed up. And those are in the very bottom of the epidermis, the outer layer of the skin. Um and it's an incredibly good absorber of UV, better than anything we've come up with.

It's almost perfect at it. But what you want when it when um your skin gets hit with sunlight, that melanin that's just been produced is at the bottom of the epidermis where the melanocytes are. So it has to migrate to the surface and then it kind of acts like like like little umbrellas like it'll like cover the nucleus of the cell and protect it. So you get these little like umbrellas, a line of umbrellas on the very top of your epidermis, but it has to migrate up because of sunlight. If melanin is lower in your skin, then it's going to absorb all that radiation farther down and actually it can cause more free radicals deeper in the skin. And what would cause it to be lower?

So, it starts lower and it only goes up in response to sunlight. Oh, so if you're never ever in the sun and you suddenly go out and get hit by a bunch of sunlight, your melon's going to be down too low and can actually create for you. It can exacerbate the problem. So, this lady might be exacerbating the problem if he's just getting the melanin that way. it to. Yeah.

I don't know cuz I don't know about this specifically, but you probably Yeah. You don't want to just be like messing around with melanin uh like to the extent that she is. Oh boy, that's interesting cuz like the melanotan stuff the I' I've I have heard about it before and I just I never really looked into it but the idea kind of makes sense that if you can make your body produce more melanin that would protect itself but I didn't realize that it has to be melanin from sun exposure. You want in the right place? Yeah. Could both things work?

Could you do it that way and with sun exposure? increase increase both and would it in would it give some sort of a benefit to have a higher level of melanin that could eventually get to the surface of the skin? Does that make any sense? You're you're above my pay grade now. Like I think you might be above everybody's pay grade. I don't I don't know if anyone has looked at that.

They seem It seems like something to look into though if we know that there's a benefit to having melanin. Yeah. I mean, it'd be interesting, but I I think the stuff's new enough that there probably hasn't been a ton of research on it. So, what does a pale person do? What does the old pasty white do? Yeah.

So full pasty white like really pale. Yeah. Like my friend I have a friend is my my daughter said he's white and I said she was really little and I go yeah. She goes no no no he's white like paper. So if you're white like paper England. Yeah.

You you do have to be really careful. Um you're not going to tan that much. You just don't make that much melanin. Um can that change over time? Can they like slowly expose themselves to the sunlight like a five minutes a day and just ramp it up? Depend if if it depends on your genetics.

Um if you're like a fullon ginger like true redhead uh you're then you have a type of melanin called the melanin not melanin which is what everybody else has and the melanin just does not do a good job of absorbing sunlight. Oh no. At that point there's no hope for gingers. There's no hope for gingers in terms of sun exposure. Damn. The hope is just, you know, avoid that midday sun that's high in UV.

Get the morning and and like the sunrise and sunset stuff that doesn't have the UV in it. Okay. So, they can benefit from sun exposure, but they can't have like full-on outdoor sun exposure. Yeah. They're the ones who need to be really careful. So, for those people, sunscreen is recommended.

Yeah. or or just cover up even I think better. You know how many other people are working on this stuff and is everybody sort of in agreement with the data the people that are examining it? I mean there's a ton of science coming out but it's it's early days for sure. Doesn't it seem crazy that sun and our reaction to sun is unknown or at least poorly studied? Yeah.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, but it's amazing how many things in medicine, you know, you you dive into the research and you dig down a little and you realize that we're just kind of guessing still on on many levels. Like it's early days for a lot of this stuff. Well, certainly for like stuff that they use for anti-depressants. Yeah. But that's Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Sun sun exposure is competitive with anti-depressants in terms of lifting depression. Isn't that nuts? And you know what's way better? Exercise.

Yeah. Many times better than any known anti-depressants. Regular exercise. I mean, exercise is number one for everything. Cross uh ginger people with mel the the peptide here. Mhm.

Seeing a few posts about it changing their hair color. Interesting. And this one permanently. What? Yeah. Click on that.

This is I guess this just takes us to the Reddit. I was just going to show a YouTube video here, but there's multi changes hair color other posts about it. Whoa. And there's a I was just seeing Wonder if that would work with people that are old that have like white hair. I wonder what that would do. Like a melatonin 2 page says like how it can affect hair color.

I read through it real quick. This is not the best website to Isn't it weird that women with red hair are hot and men with red hair are not? It's very weird cuz women with red hair are considered very attractive. Yeah, this one's this guy's got a spray tan. Okay, but the people that take it, that one guy, is he like a one of one where it changed his hair color? So that this, like I said, so this website, click on that link.

Click on the video. Let's watch it for a couple seconds. See what this guy's showing. So, this is him before and this is him now. His eyebrow and his beard colors changed. Also, I we clicked on the This might not even be him.

He could be reporting the video about someone else, too. So, before I got all gray and my hair, he looks pretty good. I guess animal lying by the side of the road. I actually used to be ginger. Now, I was bullied a lot as a kid because I was ginger. I was weird and I was chubby.

That's the winning trio for being directions from this going through a lot of changes up here, down there. You know, the stuff that happens during puberty. So, I didn't immediately noticed that my hair had gotten much darker. It was actually other people asking me what the hell I had done to my hairline. You know, on this picture, it's probably much clearer. That's a picture of me and my brother.

We have the same genetics in regards of skin color and the color of our hair. And as you can see, my hair is now completely different from his. We used to have the same skin and the same hair, especially the color. Now, this is only from using one vial of melanotan 2 in the span of a year, even more than a year, and it was at low uh dosages. But with our genetics of big, tall white ginger, Belgian gingers, it completely changed the color of my hair and my skin, and the effects were very strong. So the effects are permanent.

So he still has dark hair. But what's interesting is in the beginning he had gray hair. He seems older obviously. Right. Right. But he had gray.

He was showing Right. I mean gray gray. Yeah. Gray and ginger. Gray is a loss of melanin. Like melanin is what makes your hair dark as well as your skin dark.

So he's he's resupplied his melanin for his hair as well. It seems like that seems kind of nuts. He said one vial for a year old even over a year, right? So for a year, so his skin has gotten pale again, but his hair is permanently dark. So that's what he used to look like. He had red hair, he had a red beard, and he had gray hair.

His hair had gone gray and now his hair is dark. I got to know if this guy's full of [ __ ] Yeah, that's one that's again it's like there's one only one person saying this. Yeah, that's the problem. It's like you don't know what you're looking at. But that's crazy. But it is.

Yeah, melanin is the pigment for all of it. For all put that in. Does mel melatonan. How does it say? How do you say it? Melanotan.

Melanotan. Does melanotan have an effect on hair color? Put that into perplexity. See what they say. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I know a lot of people with gray hair that bums them out and they dye it and [ __ ] and that can't be good for you. You're putting [ __ ] dye in your hair. I know. Stuff makes me hesitant. I'm stuck with the gray hair, I think. Well, mine would be gray if I had hair.

It's all gray on my beard now. It's gray on my I'm gonna try it. I want to try some melotan and see if I get dangerous boners. Melanotan does not have good human evidence of changing scalp or body hair color. Its main effect is on skin tanning and freckling, not on turning hair darker or lighter. But how's that guy?

Maybe he's like a just a weird case. Uh yeah, just got to be a hormone dependent. What about the lady with the giant boobs? She had dark hair, too. She she's saying when I was looking through her thing, it was said she went through a permanent tanning process, so I don't know. She was taking extreme dosages.

Also, her Instagram account is a mess. If it's even hers, it's the one that Google showed me. But what's the what's the erection connection? I don't understand how you know more melanin was the melanotan erection connection. I have heard that though actually Brighgum from ways to well the local wellness clinic was telling me about that and some people have crazy erections because of melanitan. Yeah like what how and some people don't like that one guy that had taken it and he said it didn't affect them that way but maybe maybe he's broken.

Does it say anything about coming up right now? Why melanotan causes boners? Okay. It can increase uh libido and trigger erections in some men, but it's not approved for. Well, I know it's not approved. How does it affect it?

Stimulates melanoortin melanoortin receptors in the brain which are involved in sexual arousal and erection control, not just tanning. Controlled tiles controlled tro gez I can't talk today. Subcutaneous melanotan 2 caused erections in most men with erectile dysfunction, often without sexual stimulation. Same studies found increased sexual desire in a majority of doses compared Interesting. I wonder what the connection is. It's that it's the melanoin like you said that the MC what was it?

MC4R up there. Um, so yeah, MC1R is um the the gene for um that that could determines whether you've got the red hair or not. Look at this. Common side effects were yawning. Nausea, yawning, and stretching, flushing with decreased appetite. Some participants had severe nausea at higher doses.

Yawning and sexual desire is an interesting combination. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, I'm really horny, but I'm too tired to do anything hypoactive sexual desire for premenopausal women. Interesting. Interesting. Also shows a rectoenic I like that word eretogenic effects in men with ED in including those who fail PD5 inhibitors.

What is that? What is a PDE5 inhibitor? Interesting. Someone should someone out there with gray hair should give it a go. Find out find out what's up. Doesn't sound like other than dealing with boners.

Doesn't seem like there's any real problems. Um, I I keep going back to this you getting attacked thing and I don't understand how someone could attack you with the data that you're showing cuz like it's you're not making any dangerous or you know any claims or any you're not advising people do anything that's reckless. Yeah. No, I mean I purposefully have sort of well I've really haven't I basically tell people to figure it out for themselves, right? Um but it's only small amounts of sun exposure that seem to be necessary to get most of the benefits. Like the the jump isn't going from zero to some.

It's you don't it you don't need it a lot. Nobody really needs a lot. Unless you have really dark skin, then you can probably get away with a lot. Um, so yeah, just a little bit of sun exposure doesn't seem like a crazy recommendation, but it's just because the messaging has been sort of so extreme and unyielding. Like they've worked for so hard to sort of scare people away from any sun exposure that I think backing that up a little bit is sort of uncomfortable. You know, I understand.

But I mean, isn't history filled with new discoveries and changing courses? Yeah. And I think it'll change, but one it's going to be one funeral at a time. It's going to be ugly all the way. When you you do this kind of work, like have you discovered any other things that people thought were unhealthy that turned out to actually probably be good for you, at least if used correctly? Yeah, that's such a good question.

So, the one like the metaphor that I think um we're all familiar with and that I think maps pretty perfectly here is um diet and and fat, right? Like 20, you know, 25 years ago, Gary Tobs does that article in the New York Times magazine, what if fat doesn't make you fat? And we we were still back in that era of, you know, carbs, cut all the fat out of your diet, carbs are good for you. Um margin, right? The margin era. They the the top experts got it 100% wrong back then and when they got called on it by like you know Tobs and others Nina Trolls you got you you guys have had Nina on.

I've had Tobs on as well. Oh yeah. Okay. Um you know they fought hard and they were totally wrong. Um and we now you know we we flipped but it took a long time and you know there was little little blood in the water during that process. Oh yeah.

I was in the early days of that and people were just warning me about my cholesterol. What about your cholesterol? Yeah. What's really interesting is during the heart of that um when I you know I eat a lot of meat. My diet's mostly meat. And I went to the doctor and I got all my levels checked and he said, "Are you on some anti- cholesterol medication?" I said, "No, why?" And he goes, "You have very low cholesterol." Interesting.

It was weird. And I go, "Dude, if you saw my diet, my diet's like mostly meat and eggs and bacon. That's like a giant percentage of my diet." I thought that was really interesting. I think I mean, yeah, I think the evidence is pretty good. Uh, like for keto, I think it's pretty strong. Saladino, I think, is pretty much spot on on a lot of this stuff, but but so yeah, so that like the the the ultimate experts all said that was going to kill you, right?

you know, Atkins back in the day and they were all completely wrong. So, there's uh, you know, there's a long track record of the pros being wrong, I think, on a lot of things. But that's that's a really good example and people can wrap their heads around that one because we now I think a lot of people understand that low carb really works well for them. I mean, they completely flipped the food pyramid, right? Which was a beautiful thing to do and I can't believe it happened so fast. Yeah.

Well, also with very little push back. It's kind of interesting the evidence had already compounded to the fact that listen for sure margarine is not a good thing. It's not a good substitute. But also that all these healthy fats that you're getting from milk that you're getting from eggs, eggs in particular, we've been told eggs are bad for you. The cholesterol and eggs, eggs, you could live off just eggs. Yeah.

Probably the perfect food. Yeah. Like eggs are fantastic. I always tell my friends that are vegans, I was like, "Listen, man. just get some chickens. And they're your pets and they give you free food.

It's like I have 16 chickens now. And I get eggs every day. And these chickens are pets. Like I go, "Hey ladies." You know, I feed them. I throw the worms down. They're not afraid of me.

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They they listen to me. When I open the door, they come running out and they wander around the yard. It's like a great relationship. You get free food. You take care of them. You feed them and they eat all the bugs in your yard and you get these delicious healthy eggs from them with those beautiful orange eggs.

Yeah. So, if you're worried about if it's an ethical thing, you don't want animal cruelty and good for you. That's that's a wonderful way to live, but you are sacrificing your health by not eating pasture-raised eggs. Just get the real ones, not the [ __ ] ones. The real ones. Unfortunately, they're tricking people now.

Some companies have been exposed for uh feeding their chickens turmeric. They they they feed them curcumin and and turmeric and they're make it because it makes their eggs a darker, more attractive yolk. I know, right? Well, that's like it's it's so screwy. So so bizarrely backwards. It is.

But isn't turmeric good for you? And wouldn't turmeric that you're getting from those eggs also be good for you? It's like Yeah, it can't hurt. I mean, right. So, it's not like they're getting them food dye. So, it's, you know what I mean?

So, it's like, yeah, you're getting these darker eggs because people like that and the darker eggs come from turmeric or turmeric, but yeah. Still, you're getting turmeric then, aren't you? Isn't that how it works? I mean, that's fine, but I think the chicken I think like it's the bugs that sometimes help help turn them on. Yeah, we get we get eggs from our neighbor. Um, like in Vermont, everybody ra There's chickens like running around the road everywhere.

Um, and uh, yeah, they're delicious. You and Yeah, you can tell that they're getting it from the bugs and the greens and Yeah. And it's super healthy. I mean, but that that color of things is also why they dye farmraised salmon, which is really gross, right? Salmon are getting that from bugs in particular. Yeah, exactly.

Little arthropods. Yeah. Like miniature shrimp kind of. Yeah. That's why they have that wonderful looking pink skin, that orangey pink skin. So, in that case, the dye is maybe a little more suspect, I think.

Yeah. Well, the dye is very suspect cuz it's like, you know, these farm raised salmon, they have pale skin because they're eating [ __ ] Yeah. You know. Yeah. Um, are there any other things that you've stumbled across that turn out to be good for you that people were averse to? I'm still curious about alcohol.

You know how everything is flipped on alcohol? like first it was like drink or two a day is good for you and then suddenly they flip a year or two ago and say any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I looked down I looked at into those studies um and it seems like the takeaway really should have been you know moderate drinking doesn't do much of anything to you like maybe it makes is slightly good for you or is slightly bad for you but for like a drink a a day or like one to two a day didn't seem to have a whole lot of impact on uh mortality at all and also probably reduces a little bit of stress relieves a little bit of social anxiety and that alone is really beneficial. Like how do you feel? Like are you happy or are you stressed out? Sometimes a drink or two you're like, "Ah, [ __ ] it.

We're fine. Everything's good." Like that alone has benefits like what it does to your mood that it's a social lubricant. It allow you to like maybe laugh a little bit more, have a little bit more fun. Totally. Which is why I can't give it up. like that that that social environment is a really nice environment to be in, you know, and if you know a couple beers helps make that happen, it's a good thing for I gave it up for about 8 months.

I I completely I problem is I own a comedy club and I was there a lot and so everybody's like have a drink, have a drink, let's do shots and then next thing you know you I was in the gym the next day feeling like [ __ ] I got tired of doing that to myself and so I said I'm just going to stop drinking. Not because I'm an alcoholic. Wasn't hard to stop. It was super easy. I just stopped. And then I started feeling way better.

I was like, "God, why was I drinking for so long? This is so bad." And then uh out to dinner with my wife, had a margarita like eight months later. I'm like, "Let's have a drink." She wasn't drinking either. I'm like, "Let's have a drink." I'm like, "This is nice. I like it." So now I limit myself. I just I won't have more than like two drinks.

Two drinks is kind of my m But two drinks is right. Two drinks is like wee. As long as you don't have to drive, you're not going anywhere. You know, if I go to the club, I'm there for hours. Yeah. completely sober after it's all over.

It's like I wake up in the morning. I don't feel like [ __ ] Doesn't seem to be affecting my workouts. However, if you wear a Whoop or an Aura ring or one of those tracking devices, you will notice in your sleep in your recovery. You're not sleeping as well. You don't sleep as well. You don't get the same deep sleep.

I can tell. Yeah. Just one glass of wine can [ __ ] you up a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And that for me that hit in middle age.

Like before that wasn't a problem. Um but now yeah like two drinks I two two does seem to be the cut off where you know life functions normally still. Yeah but but yeah the sleep's not as restorative somehow. Somehow but I wonder if it's the timing of when you're drinking. So I wonder if you have like a glass of wine at dinner at like 6:00 but you don't go to bed till midnight. I wonder if then your body has a chance to process it and then you're okay.

Well that Italian style, right? Like I feel like the Mediterranean lifestyle they they they got this pretty much nailed down like 2,000 years ago. Um right. It seems to work pretty well. Which also brings us back to food, right? Because the way they eat is so it's so interesting how thin they are and yet they eat mostly carbs.

I know. I know. Something's different there. A lot's different. And we know what it is now. We know that there's a lot of additives and preser preservatives and it's also like they don't use glyphosate.

And yeah, they have heirloom wheat, so they have wheat that hasn't been optimized to have a higher yield, so it doesn't have as much complex wheat glutens. And there's a lot of issues with our food, unfortunately. Yeah. And if you eat American bread, you know, the broine, all the the different additives, all the [ __ ] that we put in our food, that's so disturbing. Whenever I go to Italy, I'm I'm so angry that when I come back home, I can't have food like this. Like, you have to seek it out.

You have to go to like certain restaurants that only use like Italian flour. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you you look at um those Mediterranean cultures and it just works for them. And yeah, like you say, it's you can't explain it in terms of like macronutrients or anything like that. Like it's something there's something like synergistic about that lifestyle.

I do actually think light is part of it too. Like they got great light there, right? Yep. They have great light. Especially like the Maui Coast, those people. Yeah.

But the other thing is also less stress. They're they're not as careerfocused. They're more family oriented, very tight-knit family groups. They eat dinner together. There's a lot of laughing, a lot of drinking wine. A lot of them smoke cigarettes.

You go over there like the cigarettes never went out of style over there. They're all smoking cigarettes. And you're like, "How are you guys so [ __ ] healthy? This is weird." Yeah. Um it is. It's Yeah.

It'll be interesting on cigarettes if it turns out that in a certain context they're not that damaging and then out of that context they're super damaging. I have heard that with polyphenols. I've heard that and this is a I think controversial as well, but it's cigarettes taken along with olive oil and that a lot of these people have high olive oil rich diets and that cigarettes along with olive oil that the olive oil tends to balance out whatever damage that the cigarettes are doing. That is super interesting. Yeah. Which kind of makes sense.

And it's it's gonna be like everything is going to be something like that where it's bad in a certain context and then it seems to have been okay for people in a different context. Yeah. Yeah. Uh are there any other things that you've noticed like I know you've done work on chocolate, right? Lot of lot of work on ch Yeah, I've like my first sort of big magazine story outside magazine um sent me to the Amazon on this like crazy hunt to uh with this German guy. It was basically Apocalypse Now with chocolate.

You know, this German guy was going up river into the Amazon to try to find this wild cacao, like to work with some of the indigenous groups to harvest wild cacao and make like the world's first wild chocolate. Um, so I went with him. Uh, crazy crazy trip, but uh, but yeah, I I sort of fell in love with Cacao uh, on that trip, but it was like we landed we took a small plane and we're going to land on this river and meet a canoe that was going to take us up river to meet with these indigenous groups. So, we found a a runway, right? This is in the Bolivian Amazon. But this I've been in the Amazon all like four minutes, right?

the the plane drops us off on this flooded runway where like it was a crazy landing. We hop out of the plane. I'm glad to be alive. Um and then these four guys with guns come out of this little cabin. Uh and we're like we're gu this is actually a landing strip that our you know Colombian boss owns and we're guarding it for him and what are you two white dudes doing here? So like all the uh cocaine traffic comes through this part of the Amazon.

Whoa. And we had just done what people actually have been killed for, which is, you know, like if if a couple of white guys drop in there, they assume you're like DEA or something, right? So, they're super suspicious. And I didn't, you know, they were speaking Spanish, so I was like catching every fourth word or something. I'm like, this can't be good because of the guns. But, but anyway, the guy I was with, the German guy, he negotiated with them, and finally they're like, okay, just give us a landing fee.

So, we're like, sure. But yeah, so that was but that was the beginning of my chocolate journey. What so what part of the Amazon were you? Where were you when you um Bolivia uh which you know Bolivia you think of like mountains leaz but they have these lowlands which are like straight up like rain like tropical rainforest. It's called the Benny and it's like truly lawless area like huge swas of jungle bunch of cattle ranching as well and all the drug traffic comes through there from the Andes. So, and you went in there as just as a journalist.

Yeah. So, this guy, this German guy, he he'd been living there for 20 years and he was trying to get this uh cacao and he's like, "Yeah, I'm going to go meet with these groups. Do you want to come?" And Outside had just come to me and they're they'd like something else I'd written. And they're like, "Hey, we're Outside magazine. What's the like freakiest thing you you ever wanted to do? We'll, you know, we'll send you there." And I had like a little kid at the time.

So, I was like, you know, I'm not going to be going off a 200 foot waterfall and kayak for you guys. But then this this like, you know, heart of dark chocolate uh thing came up and I was like, I could do that for I could be like the comic guy for them. So, it was this like ridiculous journey where like everything went wrong. Um, but we did get some really good good chocolate at the end of it eventually. So, what is the benefit of wild cacao? Um, it tastes really really good.

like better than the industrial varieties of K cacao that most chocolate's made with and it's just like kind of a cool story and it can be used to support those indigenous groups so that the forest doesn't get cut down and turned into more like cattle ranch because um cacao grows in the understory of the rainforest. So it's kind of a way to monetize the the full rainforest and keep the canopy intact. Exactly. Yeah. Um what is the benefits of cacao like healthwise? It's right there with with coffee.

Um, you know, tons of polyphenols, a little bit of caffeine. It seems to, you know, be anti-inflammatory, gives you a little boost, makes you happy for some of the same reasons and maybe some different ones as well. And when you say it tastes better, like in what way? Like when you try it? Um, a lot more like aromatics and less bitterness. Like basically what happened with cacao is um when it became a global product the Europeans uh selected varieties that were high yielding.

Same thing that happened with tomatoes and everything else. They were high yielding but they lost some of like the great uh aromatic qualities that like the old Maya cacao had had. And that's what gets grown all over the world. Most cacao comes from Africa now. and it's it's more bitter, less interesting, but way cheaper. So then there's this movement that started like 10-15 years ago of people trying to go back to Latin America to find the like ancient heirloom varieties that had this great flavor and make like better chocolate than had ever been made before.

Sort of the most ancient is the stuff in the Amazon, which is where cacao originated, still growing wild. So it's it's you know it's kind of cool if you can go back to the you know primordial days and make chocolate. I mean the example of tomatoes is a perfect example cuz heirloom tomatoes are sensational. They're so delicious. So much better. They're so much better.

And then you have one of those [ __ ] McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a piece of paper. Yeah. Is that cacao? That's what it looks like. That is Yeah. So it's these pods and you open up the pod.

It's kind of like the size of like a little Nerf football or something. Oh wow. I had no idea. And so chocolate is made from the seeds inside. You got to ferment them and then roast them and then you grind them in a chocolate. Where can one get heirloom chocolate made from this ancient cacao?

So is there a company? Yeah. So the place I send people is uh Caputo uh which is online site. They're like the main importer of specialty chocolate. That's there they are. Um is that the people?

Yeah. So they Caputo has most of the like the great wild cacao available on their website. They just it's just like retail. Caputo. So is it caputo.com? Yeah.

It's from Salt Lake City. Yeah, they've got a cool shop in Salt Lake. Oh, interesting. Preserve Bolivian rainforests. Yeah, there you go. All right.

Ritual chocolate. Yeah, I've heard of people like ritual cacao ceremonies. I'm like, what are you doing? So that um what are you doing? That it's it's a um that's a gringo thing. Like everyone thinks it goes back to some like like we're referencing some ancient Maya ceremony.

Of course it is. It's it was a um a a a white dude in Guatemala named Yeah, there you go. Look at these people. It's kind of like Iaska with training wheels. They do cacao. But like what what's what can come out of a ritual where you take cacao?

I mean, you know, same thing that can come out of ritual where you do anything else. Like you're you're focusing, you know, some mindfulness. You get a little, you know, you get a little boost from the cacao, but not much. Yeah, it's it's more about the ritual or why is cacao, what is a cacao ceremony? Why are there suddenly showing up all over LA? Uh, yeah, you can answer that one on your own.

So, I mean, Jamie, if you can call up Keith's cacao, there's this guy named Keith. I think he died recently. He's like the classic gringo guru with a big white beard who would like have people in Guatemala and he's just invented this cacao ceremony thing. Oh, white people. But he's uh damn it. White people.

And then everyone else sort of took it from him. There he is. Well, he looks like the type of guy. Look at him. Big old [ __ ] dirty pot of cacao. Okay.

Poor Keith. these silly people. So, um but what there's like antioxidants in it. Like there's other a ton. Yeah, it's good for you. It's totally good for you.

It, um yeah, it, you know, gets your heart beating a little faster. There's some happy drugs in there. Um it's got a tiny bit of cannabonoids in it. Um but and it tastes great. So, you know, what's not to like? Anything else?

Any other foods or substances or different things that you found out that were beneficial? Well, how do you feel about oysters? I've wrote a book about oysters, too. I eat them all the time. Are you you're a fan? Yeah, I like them.

Are they okay? I mean, they're great. Uh but No, there's no butt. They're they're great. But I think they're I think I think we haven't figured out why. You know, they're like, you know, you're eating like a little living being.

So, I think, you know, there's like some chi factor there where the reason people get so excited and feel so good when they eat oysters. It's not because of like the nutrients. It's like there's something else that's in there, you know? Well, isn't there zinc in oysters? There's definitely zinc. And they're supposed to have an aphrodesiac effect, right?

Yeah. So, I think that aphrodesiac thing is like it's more about the G, like this living force that you're ingesting than the This sounds like hippie talk. It does. It does sound a little uh you know like she's going to get um she's going to get justified scientifically at some point. Yeah. Um so you think you're getting what's interesting there's another a friend of mine made an argument for vegans to eat um shellfish.

He said like if you're eating clams and oysters they're so primitive. They're more primitive than plants. He said there's more evidence that plants are conscious than there is that these shellfish are conscious. Yeah. I mean, I think Yeah, plants are pretty damn smart. So, yeah, weirdly so.

Yeah. And muscles and clams and oysters, they're not. They're they're they're sort of alive, but they don't feel pain. Yeah. And they just move. And because they move, they open and close, we've decided that they're animals.

And with oysters, that's literally the only thing they can do. Like clams at least can, you know, they get the tongue. And oysters, they're stuck. They they just open and close. There's not a whole lot going on there for sure. Right.

But healthy for you. Yeah. Unless you get a bad batch and then you die. They are definitely a source of food poisoning. Yeah. I've heard of people dying.

Yeah. Yeah. They they kill a few people every year. You know, it's interesting. My wife got food poisoning from oysters once when we were on vacation. We were in Hawaii and she ate oysters and somehow or another she got it and I didn't.

Uh but then uh my daughter who didn't eat oysters also got the food poisoning because food poisoning apparently can spread through the air. Interesting. And so it's contagious. Yeah. If you're I guess if you're like raling hard enough, you're you're blowing it through the air, I guess. But it was really weird.

And that's how we found out that food food poisoning is contagious. And that's one of the reasons why they isolate people when they're on boats when they have food poisoning. Yeah. Yeah, because those people could actually spread whatever that is through the air. [ __ ] weird. Yeah.

Yeah. But that I do I do love oysters, but I do get nervous when I eat them because every now and then you hear like Houston man dies from food poisoning from oysters. Cold cold water. Cold water is uh is food poisoning itself is not directly contagious as it refers to an illness caused by eating or drinking contaminated food. However, the specific viruses or bacteria responsible for the contamination are highly contagious and can easily spread from person to person through poor hygiene or shared surfaces. Yeah.

So, it's contagious. So, the viruses that come from food poisoning are contagious. It's not like through the air. Through the air. Oh, through surface contact. Is that what it is?

Oh, I see. So, coughing and stuff injecting. Yeah. So, you may be interesting the airborne confusion. They confuse few show more um confuse food poisoning with highly contagious stomach bugs like neurovirus uh where the viruses are not airborne. They're highly contagious can spread through the air in tiny droplets when someone vomits.

There it is. Leading to contaminated surfaces or breathing in aerosolized particles. So that's what it is. It's the coughs. Yeah. Um okay.

I think we covered it. You think? Yeah, I think I think we uh I think you're gonna get a lot of uh interesting responses. Well, guess what? I don't read them. So, good luck to all those haters shouting into the void.

Um I've long suspected that sun exposure is probably good for you. And then it's really just a matter of like how much and mitigating the damage that you could get if you get burnt. Turns out you're right. Yeah. I uh it just doesn't make sense that your body produces vitamin D through it. It makes you feel so good and yet somehow another it's bad.

I think it's like many things very nuanced and so I'm really happy that you did so much work on it. Thanks and I'm happy you rode the storm too. Well, the storm's just coming. I'm sure especially after this show, but uh thank you very much. And tell everybody where your book is and how they can get it. Uh yeah.

So, whatever their favorite online place, uh In Defense of Sunlight, Amazon, anywhere else. And did you do an audio version of it? Yeah, I they let me read it. Yes. We'll see if that was good news or not. Nice.

I love it when someone reads their own book. It's very important, I think. Me, too. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you very much.

Thank you. Bye.