JRE #2456 — Michael Jai White

I've learned a lot, man. And I didn't expect to, you know, when when we first started doing this, it was just for fun. We just get together with our friends, you know. >> But you knew what you wanted to do, man.

You You were pretty damn clear because Do you remember this? You remember me coming to I I think it was the Ice House in Pasadena? >> Yeah. Uh no, no, no.

Oh, shoot. It wasn't Ice House. It was It was in It was in Orange County. I came to see how many Magic Club maybe.

>> I came to see you perform and I I I um offered you the the role in Blood and Bone. Do you remember that at all? >> I do. Yeah.

Yeah, I do now. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah.

Because Blood and Bone, which is like actually Sony's most successful non- theatrical, that was basically a a a kind of a a reimagining of Hard Times with Charles Bronson >> and um uh James Coburn. >> Yes. Well, that role was basically that I was offering you was the James Coburn role, >> right? And but you were so you was dead and you said, I didn't I don't want to do this acting stuff.

I want to do I want to focus on what I you know your your interest which was you know you the standup and you you're getting together your I mean I know you and Eddie were doing like kind of the early podcast type of stuff or whatever >> and I'm like man you know you really kind of knew what you wanted to do. >> Well the the thing about acting is uh I mean I admire it especially good acting >> but it takes a lot of time out of your day. It's it's a 16- hour day. It's a long day and it it will take away from other things you do.

And I saw that with a lot of comics that they started doing acting and it would take away from their act because they really couldn't go and do sets every night. They couldn't really polish their material. >> You could see stuff getting a little clunkier. >> It's just you got to you got to focus.

You got to find the things you enjoy and focus on them. >> Yeah. That's why that's why I say I'm I'm so proud of seeing just being there and seeing what you did. you you being a part of the UFC when it was nothing promised, you know what I mean?

And >> not only was it not promised, man, people looked at you like you were doing like snuff films or something. >> Exactly. >> They they looked at like I remember the early days, man. Dana White always says this, people would talk to you like you were doing porn or something.

>> Right. Right. >> Like I was on news radio, the sitcom on NBC, and I was doing commentary where I was doing postfight interviews for the UFC and they were like, "Why are you doing this? Why are you flying to Alabama and doing cage fights?

>> See, this is what movies are. Good movies are made of [... ] like this. You know, somebody just on just out out of their spirit doing what they want to do >> with with no promise of anything and then accomplishing something. So, you know, kudos, man.

Thank you. Seriously, man. >> Well, for me, and I'm sure for you as well, when we were young, there was always a question. What is the best style?

Is it Kyokushin? Is it judo? Is it kung fu? what is it?

What's the best style? And no one really knew. I mean, Benny the Jet fought in a bunch of those no rules fights early early on, but they never really took off. There wasn't there wasn't a lot of those, you know.

And Benny was obviously a very special fighter. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. He was one of my teachers, too.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I trained at his gym. That was the He was on the podcast with Blinky.

Blinky Rodriguez came up recently and I told them I said, "When I came to LA, there was two places I had to go. I had to go to the Comey store and I had to go to the Jet Center. Had to go to the Jet Center." And I was there in '94 right before it went under because the the earthquake damaged the roof. >> Exactly.

>> And so when the rainy season came on fire and >> right down from the gooseen >> Yep. Yeah. Right down. >> Yeah.

>> And um that that was an honor, man, to be able to train in that gym. That was incredible. It was incredible place. >> Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I used to be there. >> Yeah, man. Yeah.

that that those are some great times cuz I mean I connect with Benny where because when I was in Bridgeport my instructor Matty Mesi went to California and started training with Benny. >> Oh wow. >> Early on. So he put that on the map about coming you know to the mecca and training with Benny.

>> It was the mecca for for kickboxing in the especially in the 90s. That was the mecca. You had to go to the Jet Center. Everyone talked about the Jet Center.

>> Yeah man. That was >> we were always wondering like what is the style? what's the best style? And then the UFC came along and I'm like, "Oh my god, they did it.

They did it. They figured it out. They put it all together." And for a while it was jiu-jitsu cuz nobody understood jiu-jitsu and hoist Gracie was just running [... ] >> Well, you know, you you know how that was kind of set up a little bit. >> It was a little set up, but I mean, look, he had some challenges like Ken Shamrock was a beast.

You know, he has some really good fighters he was facing against. Kimbo Slice, I mean, excuse me, not Kimbo Slice. Um, >> not Kimmo. >> Kimmo, sorry.

chemo was [... ] huge. >> He was a big dude, but you know, he he didn't really Well, >> he was a 100 pound advantage. >> He had a 100 pounds over Hoist. >> The Gracies were smart.

>> They were very smart at that time in knowing, you know, the right people to kind of pick at that time cuz, you know, there were some there were some killers out there. >> There were some killers out there. Yeah, they definitely set it up, especially the early ones. But it's also it's like, >> you know, that was it was good for us to see a guy like Hoist who wasn't jacked.

He was a slender guy who only weighed 175 lbs and he was strangling everybody, arm baring everybody. It was it was wild to see when he beat Dan Sever. Dan Severn was 260 lbs and Hoist tapped him off his back with a triangle. >> Yeah, that man.

What what a story that put that put jiu-jitsu on the map. >> On the map big time. But you know, one thing that always broke my heart is people never knew about uh Hixon, >> right? >> Oh my god.

>> I know. >> That dude. >> Yeah, >> that cat was like I I always considered him like pound-for-pound the best because he he not he had this not only, you know, jiu-jitsu skills, but just his concentration. >> Yeah.

>> And he was almost like, you know, hypnotic, >> right? >> You know what I mean? The and just no waste of energy. >> None.

Just unbelievable. What a amazing person to watch. You I would encourage anybody to pull up his his fights. >> Well, another great example.

>> Oh, yeah. Another great example of cross training, too, cuz Hixon got really into yoga >> and everybody's like, "What the [... ] You doing yoga?" Like, yoga is for girls, right? Hixon got really into yoga and got super flexible and s and really good at controlling his breathing. >> Oh, yeah.

Yeah. >> And never got tired. >> Yeah. You saw him in that in the Hulk.

You see thatorton? Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, man.

It's something, man. That that talk about a legend. >> Oh, real legend. >> Yeah, man.

>> Well, Hixon, there's a video of him and he did this multiple times where he would go to these gyms and he would um teach a seminar, like a long seminar, and then roll with all the black belts and just tap them one after the other, one world champions, guys that just didn't understand what was going on. Like, how is this happening? >> Oh, yeah.

like Paul Oilio when he was a WEC World Champion and he was uh he had won the Mundials I believe he'd won multiple jiu-jitsu championships and he he trained with Hixon and he's like man it's true he goes I can't believe it he goes that guy treated me like I didn't even belong in there it was crazy >> and and Hixon by that time was probably like 40 >> you know and it's still just dominating guys on the mat and effortless it wasn't strength it was it was just pure or technique and >> basics and just mastering of basics.

It's >> basics. It was like there's none of the no barolos and no Xgar, nothing crazy. Everything he did is like jiu-jitsu 101, but to a masterful masterful degree. >> Yeah.

Incredible. >> And telling people that, you know, because everybody know Hoist. And I'm like, do you you guys don't know who his big brother is? is he would openly say that my brother's 10 times better than me.

>> Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that's that really put uh and and I love jiu-jitsu because it it's it's held up the tradition that martial arts so much of karate lost because it became a business >> and people would just, you know, put their time in and pay for their black belts, right?

>> And it just warded it down. all these people running around saying that they're master this and you know a grand whatever and all these madeup things. And it's like, "Oh yeah, the guy's a master in a in a Asian martial art." That's that's a that's a English word, >> right? >> You know what I mean?

How did how did master sneak its way into >> Yeah. But anyway, but you know, male ego, you know? So, >> well, the thing about martial arts other than jiu-jitsu is when you're sparring, it's very controlled. Like a lot of karate sparring is very controlled.

A lot of taekwondo sparring is very controlled. But in jiu-jitsu, the beautiful thing about grappling is you know how good everybody is because they all spar >> and they're all rolling with each other and they essentially go on full blast until the tap. >> Yeah. >> And so you there's no hiding there's no hiding your skill.

>> Yeah. I love what Eddie Bravo used to say. Basically when you you won I killed you. >> Yeah.

Yeah. >> I just killed you. >> Yeah. >> You know, so that's like wow.

That's a that is a trip because it's like it actually works out that way. >> Oh yeah. If he gets you in a triangle and you tap, it's because you were about to go to sleep and once you're asleep, he could just stomp your head into a pancake. >> Yeah.

You're you're done. >> Yeah. Just hold on to that triangle and then you never wake up. >> Yeah.

What a humbling thing. >> Yeah. >> You know. Yeah.

>> Very humbling. Yeah. And what's really humbling is how quickly someone can do it to you when you don't know what you're doing. >> Like that was shocking to me cuz I had all this martial arts experience and I first started training.

I was like, "What's someone going to do to me? I wrestled in high school. I'm strong. I'm fast.

I didn't know how to fight. I just got manhandled over and over and over again. I was like, "This is ridiculous." >> Yeah. See that?

But kudos because a lot of people they because of if you got an egotistical thing going and you you know get that your your little uh I don't know your your comfort because you got your black belt and all that kind of stuff. That means Jack nothing, you know, to everybody I know who continues and really to learn, you know, real fighting >> Yeah. knows when you you had a boxer beat the hell out of you and you go, "Oh, wait. There's a lot of this stuff I got to toss out the window." >> Yeah.

>> And because I mean I I never forget like times where, you know, like I a wrestler gets to me or a boxer like pieces me up like early on. I'm like, "No, I got to learn this." >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> I went through several of those. >> Mhm. I went through one of them in high school because I have a had a friend in high school that was a wrestler and uh I didn't think anything of wrestling. I'm like that's not even a martial art.

>> And then we wrestled on the grass one day and he just took me down at will and I was like this is ridiculous. Like he was pinning me down. I couldn't I couldn't move. I couldn't get up.

I'm like >> this is stunning, >> right? >> I thought I'm strong. I thought I could move. I thought I'll be able to get out of the way.

No, not I had no chance. And he wasn't even a great wrestler. He was just a decent wrestler and he just humbled me over and over and over again. So then I started wrestling.

>> Then when I got into taekwond do >> I thought I'm really good at taekwond do. I was competing on a national level. I won the state championships four years in a row. I was [... ] people up.

>> And then I remember the first time I boxed with a really good amateur boxer. I was like, "Oh lord." >> And this kid was like 18 years old and uh I was at the and he went on his kid his name is Dana Rosenblat. He went on to become uh New England middleweight champion. He beat Vinnie Pazienza.

>> Oh [... ] >> He beat Howard Davis Jr. as a professional. He was a really good boxer. >> Wow.

Yeah, he had to be. >> But he was kickboxing at the time and I was going to get into kickboxing. And so I was sparring with him. But when I was boxing with him, I was just getting lit up.

>> I was like, "Oh." And then also when we were kickboxing, the moment he got close to me, I was in trouble, right? >> I was like, "Oh no." Like Taekwond do had too many flaws, the hand techniques. So, I had gone through that and so then I thought, okay, well, now I understand kickboxing. >> Then I met a dude who went to Thailand a bunch of times and was training Muay Thai and fighting over there.

And then I started learning leg kicks. I'm like, well, oh, good lord. Now all they have to do is kick my legs. I didn't even think of that.

>> And then I started really paying attention to >> WKA fights like the old Dennis Alexio days, Don the Dragon Wilson, and I was like, >> leg kicks, leg kicks are everything. Oh my goodness. Yeah. >> And then I'm like, "Okay, well, now I got a solid foundation.

I understand how to fight." And then I started getting like, "Oh, no. I'm getting raped." I was just getting mauled on the mats. >> I was like, "This is t." But I'd been through that so many times and restarted so many times. I was like, "Well, it's time to learn this now." >> Yeah.

That that's that's what I'm saying is everything has something to teach you. >> Yeah. And uh you know even even though there's that there's a martial art there's a fantasy world which is I I look at it as hilarious you know there's this you know uh I I don't know there's >> sometimes I I would say it like this like with martial arts is the the Dunning Krueger effect in the largest way possible because everybody >> out there has an opinion of martial arts though very few people really know what it is. you know, they want to look at, you know, the movies and everything and they really want to believe that.

>> They want to believe that this guy who, you know, kicks in the air and all that kind of stuff will be able to beat a a champion. >> And in a way, hey, I benefit from that to some degree because they, you know, they they think that about me. But, you know, I even though I I I'm comfortable fighting and I love to I mean, I just love, you know, fighting against anybody, you know, but >> Well, you've had actual competition experience, like a lot of competition experience. >> Yeah.

But my my best experience is was is with like I got I got the chance to train against champions at their place, >> you know, when they're at their best. And it's not an ego thing. It's just like I I love to be able to test myself and I mean cuz I'm my biggest competition and so that whole thing about um just what the bow means to me is like thank you for making me better >> right >> by providing me an obstacle and and the higher the you know the better the person the better I can become >> 100%. >> And so I loved it.

So I've, you know, for years I'm in there with Gokan Saki and, you know, Maurice Smiths and, you know, who, you know, you name it. I I there's I've gotten I consider myself one of the luckiest like martial artists in on the planet because I get to train with so many people sometimes, you know, at my house and, you know, I've got all these, you know, >> former champions, you know, training and Rampage when he was champion. and I go to his place and you know and and honestly like the things I brag about is when I get humbled, you know, cuz that's when I learn something. My my philosophy is I love to be wrong because every time I'm wrong, I learn something.

>> Absolutely. >> And so like some of the the best times for me is like I know when I was, you know, Michael Bisping was getting ready for uh uh to fight George St. Pierre and we were in Thailand. I was like, "Yeah, you know, let's let's mix it up.

What were you doing in Thailand? >> Oh, we were doing a movie out there. >> Oh, wow. >> But he had to train.

He was getting ready uh for the George St. Pierre fight. And so, you know, I was like, "Yeah, let's let's do some rounds or whatever." And I got so winded the second round. I'm like, "Dude, just whoop my ass." I I feel so like like I'm embarrassed.

I should >> was a cardio machine. >> Yes, he was. >> He was a cardio machine. I didn't expect that because we were we spent all day on a yacht the day before and he was drinking non-stop.

I'm a non-drinker, right? I'm like, "This guy's going to, you know, yeah, I'm going to probably take it easy on him today." >> He is one of the toughest [... ] that ever fought in the sport. I swear. >> This is what I say about him.

No matter what you think about watching his fights, you have to understand, not only did he accomplish so much, he accomplished a lot of it with one eye. >> One eye. >> One [... ] eye. He had 11 fights in the UFC with a winning record with one eye.

>> Yeah. >> Crazy. >> Yes. Yeah.

That that's man. >> He would memorize the eye chart >> so that when they covered his eye, he could sight it out like he could read it. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

>> How [... ] crazy is that? >> He's got a hell of a He's got a hell of a personal story, too. I was trying to encourage him to get that >> get that made, you know? Like, I honestly, man, I I I really I really look at these uh UFC fighters and you you know, the MMA guys as our modern day heroes.

They're our gladiators. And so whenever I have a chance, man, I always like to put them in movies and try to expose them to another kind of way uh of, you know, getting paid. Yeah. >> Especially afterwards because I some it breaks my heart that >> they're heroes and then they get discarded sometimes by mean not not by the um the union that they're with, but just by the fans.

They're they're so fickle sometimes. >> Yes. Well, the the casuals, the people that aren't really martial artists, >> right? Yeah.

So, you know, >> dismiss a guy when they lose a few. >> Yeah. I just did my my third movie with uh with Cowboy Cerrone, you know, uh we just finished a little over a week ago. >> Oh, that's awesome.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He's doing really good, man. >> I love that.

Yeah, me too. That's a guy that could really legitimately transition to become a movie star. >> Yes. Yes.

And he's got a lot more confidence. This, like I said, the third movie I did, I did a he did a western with me. Uh, Outlaw Johnny Black. I I wrote and directed it.

Uh, but I had I had uh Cowboy uh I had uh Randy Couture in it. >> Oh wow. >> And then Josh Barnett. >> Ry's done an amazing job of transitioning.

>> Oh, absolutely. >> The Expendables, you know, and he's great at it. He has a great personality. Just very absolutely very calm.

He like he Well, I remember one time he was fighting Tim Sylvia for the heavyweight title and he came out there. He had a smile on his face. He looked over at me and he winked. >> I'm like, "How is this [... ] so relaxed >> before he's fight?" But he had a an amazing perspective.

He's like, >> he said to me, >> "The people who love you will love you whether you win or lose." >> And he said, "What's the worst thing that can happen? You lose." He goes, "You've lost before. It's no big deal." >> Yeah. Remember him spanking Tito?

>> Yeah. He got on top of me, spanking him when he had him down. Randy was an animal. >> Yeah.

Well, when we, you know, he had that heart attack while he was shooting my movie. >> That's crazy. >> And then came back to set like nothing. >> How did he have a [... ] heart attack?

>> I don't I don't remember how exact. It was And I I think he he drove himself to the hospital. >> Yeah, man. That's about an American hero, man.

I mean, >> I was there for his first fight. >> Really? >> Yeah. 1997.

Yeah. I was there for his very first fight. >> Oh, shoot. >> He fought this huge jack dude.

Took him down. Mountain him. beat the [... ] out of him. It was wild.

It was like that was the time where wrestlers had first started cracking this code, right? There was this code of there was a lot of people that thought like jiu-jitsu was the only way and then the elite wrestlers got in there. Okay. >> The Mark Kurs, the Mark Coleman's, these and then Randy, a bunch of these guys got in there and then they realized like if a guy can just take you down and beat the [... ] out of you from the top, there's not a whole lot you could do about it.

Right. Right. >> And then we realize like, boy, that is the corn that's the true cornerstone of martial arts, the ability to take a guy down. >> My goodness.

I mean, what's harder than wrestling? I don't think there's any >> the hardest sport in the world. The hardest sport in the world and the best sport in the world to get your kids into at a young age because the discipline and the mental toughness that they get will carry them through for the rest of their life. >> Yep.

Tenacity, the just the stick tuitiveness, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. That's just like >> even high school wrestling. I remember wrestling in high school and I had already done martial arts, but I was like, I'd never trained that hard.

I was like, I can't believe. And then it carried me over into my taekwondo career because I realized like, oh, I'm leaving a lot on the table. Like, I'm not training like these guys are. So, I started running.

I started adding all these things to my training that I wasn't doing before. I started doing a lot more calisthenics, a lot more different things. I was like, I'm leaving something on the table because we were not training in the gym and we were sparring hard. We were doing hard rounds.

you'd get tired, but it was not the same as what we were doing in wrestling. No one trains harder than wrestling. >> Anorobic stuff, man. That's that's man.

I got I got the wrestling bug when um and when I was in my I was a senior in high school and the football coach was a wrestler in in college and he ch he challenged me. He I think we did this two years in a row, my junior year and my senior year. At the end of the year, we he we'd wrestle. We'd just go like, you know, he and I I was, like I said, I was big for my age.

>> Were you playing football? >> Uh I I was for a very short time, but I ended up um I was I wasn't I wasn't designed for for um >> team sports. >> Me neither. >> I I ended up beating up the football coach.

>> Oh, no. >> Yeah. I had a I dude like I had I had the worst temper than anybody I'd ever seen. I mean I used to go into fits of rage.

I was so angry early on, man. It's like the Hulk is like, "Mike, you should chill out a little bit, man." Like I I was just >> It's probably from being on your own at 14. >> Yeah. You know what it is is like I was growing up in a very harsh environment and I was I didn't know I was an artist.

I didn't know I was a writer, director, whatever. You know, they didn't you didn't see those growing up where I am, right? And so when you're a sensitive kid, man, what you do is you you build armor. >> Like I was to play Mike Tyson later on and I understood him quite well.

Uh and if you're sensitive, you you know, anything that's precious, you put it in you lock it in a safe and you become the safe. And it's it's like I grew up my brothers were completely different. They're they're engineers. So things rolled off their back.

But like for me just I was just volatile. And luckily I had martial arts to kind of f put my focus into. But like I said like a like I was to play Mike Tyson. I understood him a great deal.

And you know, even though you take the moniker of this monster, it's only to hide what's really deep inside. And that's why you would see if anybody's going to go into tears in front of a million people, it's people like Mike Tyson. And you go, how does that fit in the same person? >> Right.

>> And so that's what I was growing up. And you know, I don't know if you know this, but I I was a I was a school teacher before. I was an actor. >> Oh, really?

Yeah, I taught EMD. I was a special ed teacher. >> So, I focused on a lot of kids who were very much like me. And I still do that.

In a way, I consider that my real job. Whenever I'm off from work on a movie or whatever, I go into the inner cities. I go into community centers. I devote my time because there's nothing that I could do.

There's no better spending of time than something like that because I was luckily luckily saved. I had just at the right times in my life just different seeds planted. And so I'm I'm confident that if those seeds were not planted, I would not be here because like I say, I was been through some some crazy stuff. >> It's a classic story.

>> Yeah, bro. Man, like I tell you, like just little under two years ago, a buddy of mine who's a close friend of mine, um he he got out of prison. He was in prison for almost like 30 years. And he found me on Facebook.

And so when I went back east, we we linked up and I and you know, I know a lot of people who has have businesses and everything. I hooked him up, you know, got him a job and we were sitting over lunch and in the middle of him telling me like a third or fourth story like back in the glory days of us or whatever. While he was in the middle of this story, I was I was, you know, kind of getting myself set to kind of set him straight because I don't know if you want to call this superstitious, but I won't lie. I I refuse to lie to my friends.

I even I won't lie by omission. Um so I was getting set to tell him, "Dude, man, you got to stop embellishing on these stories just because you were locked up and you made these stories sound bigger than than life, >> right? >> I get it, but you're that's not real. You got to you got to really, you know, kind of not do that." And in the middle of me thinking that and I'm listening to him, I go, "Holy [... ] he's telling the truth." I started remembering what he was telling me >> and I'm like, "Now I'm finishing his sentences.

Not only was that story true, but the other ones were true, too." And dude, like I swear every time I think about this, I I got these goosebumps and I realize, oh my god, how close I was to being where he was or just not being on this planet, >> right? >> Like I better devote my time into helping kids the way I was helped. >> Yeah. Don't pull that ladder up.

>> No. Hell no. Hell no. Even if I'm taken out, I I accept that.

Even if I'm in some projects where where I'm not supposed to be and I shouldn't have been, I accept that because dude, I am abundantly lucky. I like it's it doesn't even it doesn't even fit on the radar how lucky I am. And I could remember a lot of these crazy stories, you know, aside from the ones that he made me conjure back up, but man, I'm like, "Wow." >> Well, that speaks to your character that you had downplayed it all in your mind so much that you thought he was exaggerating. >> I swept it under the rug.

>> Yeah. >> I I you know, >> because you're not that person anymore. >> No. No.

But I mean, but there was so much there was so many events things that would I just call it on a Wednesday that I went through that it's like I don't know like I think I wouldn't trade it because I I continue to be the happiest guy I know because of I think some of that >> because you can appreciate the good times. >> Oh my god. Yeah. And >> I should be slapped if I complain about anything, >> right?

>> You know what I mean? Like what? >> And so, you know, so I just boy, I I just know I'm so blessed. And uh and you know what what we do what we're doing even right now, man.

We're we're in the service industry, man. You know, you're here to serve. In my my opinion, that's what we're all here for. And uh you know it's great that we get to serve and doing the things that we would like to do inspired us.

>> That's definitely a lot of what we do. I mean that's definitely a lot of it, right? You you you entertain. But um I feel very blessed that I've been able to expose people >> to so many different >> ways of thinking, so much information, so many different human beings that have led completely different paths >> that can tell you about whatever discipline they're involved in, what they've learned and what we're what we're working on right now and what you can learn about the human mind, the body, ancient history, fill in the blank, like whatever it is.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I see you do that over and over and you utmost honesty. I remember like when you had to kind of pull Sha aside and tell as a friend some things that are hard for people to, you know, other friends to tell him, >> you know, and like >> that was real hard.

>> Yeah. >> Well, that was real hard because I love that guy. He's a great he's a great person. He's a great human being and I knew the path.

I I'd seen it too many times, but I hadn't seen it with someone I was that close with. I was like, "You have to stop because you not only that you're in the heavyweight division, so the knockouts are brutal and you're going to get three or four more in the next couple of years and then you're not going to recover from those." >> But man, so many people I I hope they >> take a page out of that because it's so non-manly I feel to not to just not say anything, right? >> And allow somebody you love to go down the road. I mean that that might be detrimental for them.

>> Well, it was also Sha had another path. >> He was really good at podcasting. He's fun. He's a funny dude, right?

Yeah. >> He's like as a podcast. He's like got a great personality. He's hilar he's silly, >> you know?

He's a big giant silly dude and like we would have so much fun and he was doing really well and he was making more money doing that than he was fighting. But his identity was so wrapped up in him being a top 10 UFC heavyweight. you know, he had beat world class guys like Merco Crocop, you know, and he he was legit, man. But though that time had passed and uh I saw that his he was one foot in and one foot out and as soon as the guy's one foot in, one foot out, >> you're going to run into some guy who has both feet in and he's a [... ] samurai.

And then you're going to wake up on a stretcher and you're on the way to the hospital going, "What happened?" And you don't remember the fight. You don't remember nothing. >> And then you don't know where your keys are. You forget people's names.

You for you tell the same story over and over again and then you struggle to put sentences together. When you start seeing dudes with the slur >> worth that, man. >> Nothing's worth that cuz you're I mean at the time he was only 35 years old or whatever he was. I'm like, man, you got another 45 55 years of life.

You you can't do this. You can't you you can't sacrifice all these years for glory that will never be achieved anyway because you're not on that path anymore. Yeah. And it's not about what strangers say about you.

No, >> it's about your, you know, your friends, your family, people who really love you. >> It's just so hard for people to abandon that identity. That's the hardest thing with fighters is to abandon that identity. >> Mhm.

>> We've seen so many guy, the even the greats. They come back and they shouldn't and you see it and and you see them get humiliated and you're like, "Oh." >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when it comes down to it, these people, they don't love you, man.

like a lot of you know it's >> they love you as the image. >> Yeah. They live vicariously through you. I remember I remember one time I was in um a fight in Boston and I remember when something completely changed usually if anybody would because I did any kind of thing.

I would do kickboxing or this tournament. I I I just loved my my best I think the the thing I did best in the world was fighting. it. I had this I always had these cheat codes in a way and I enjoyed the the the chess match of it and anybody who were was against me.

I don't care if you were my cousin or whatever, you were going to pay for all the angst that I've I've had in my life. >> But until there was this one time, I swear I ducked a technique. I caught somebody with something that was kind of, you know, kind of cool. And I just remember the audience just cheering.

And in that moment, I was like just angry, kind of like, yo, this guy could really be messed up right now. You're cheering for me. You're living vicarious through me like I'm a pitbull or something, >> right? >> And I got angry at the audience.

I [... ] hated them. And I said, "Cuz if I was down on the ground, you'd be cheering for the person that put me down." And something just snapped. And I go, "No, this is not enough for me. This is this is not this is not what I want to do." >> And and you know, just something snapped.

And I I much rather be skillful, test myself in a skillful way. Um, and I much rather not try to peel your head off, but show I could as opposed to, you know, that triumph of dominating you, right? >> It was nothing for me anymore in that.

um you know and just something just something just rubbed me the wrong way and I just anytime I would do any kind of competition it was for me and it wasn't for an audience you know I just something soured >> I I always thought at one time I'm going to be called out you know and I thought oh I I'll I'll rise to that occasion if that that happens and you know kind of like remember the thing with you and Wesley which would have been oh my god that would have been terrible but um oh yeah but uh but I always thought hey you know maybe you know something >> I think Wesley just needed money I mean that was one >> I don't I don't think he'd ever be I don't think there was ever serious it's very much like I think >> we were in negotiation for quite a while man we had lawyers involved >> yeah it's always easy to pull a plug on something like that just like John Claude's talking about fighting uh Jake Jake Paul right >> is he talking about that already he's 100 years old he weighs 50 pounds I'm like, "Come on, man.

Come on. >> Is he really talking about I just saw something in the last couple days. I'm like, okay." >> I think Wesley was serious because I think they had um they had hit him with that tax case and he owed a lot of money. >> This is before that tax case.

>> No, no, no. It was in the middle of it. >> Really? >> Yeah.

100%. I know it was. Yeah. Yeah.

It was 200 I want to say five or six. It was in the middle of all that and he was in trouble. It was it was serious >> and he you know obviously eventually w up going to jail. >> Yeah.

Yeah. I mean >> and so they were going to set up a fight with him and JeanClaude Vanam. That was the first fight. But Campbell Mlan Yeah.

Campbell McLaren from the UFC was like, "No one gives a [... ] about you fighting JeanClaude Vanam. You got to fight someone who's current." And so he said, "Let me contact Joe Rogan." He called me up and he said, "Would you be willing to fight Wesley Snipes?" And I was like, "What?" >> And I was like, "Come on, really?" I go, "What is this?" And so I said, "Let me think about it." I thought about it. I called him the next day. I said, "Let's [... ] do it." >> Really?

>> Yeah. I was training with Rob Cayman in the mornings and then I was doing jiu-jitsu at night. I trained twice a day for 6 months. >> Wow.

>> I was always tired. I was always tired. That's one thing that I realized like, [... ] man. To be like, and I wasn't even a professional really, but it was training like a professional.

It's like, I can't believe how tired I am all the time. >> Uhhuh. >> Um, but you know, I think Wesley had never really had a fight. I don't think so.

I think he he was a he was an accomplished martial artist. He had good technique. >> I I trained with Wesley's instructors, you know, Marcus Elgato was good friend of mine and um and also uh Lamar Thornton who was >> Marcus Elgato's instructor. That's I believe the that's the only that's the the the lineage I I believe that he he's through.

But I mean, I've never I've known Wesley since way before he was kind of Wesley. Well, I was a giant fan of Wesley, too, which was also wild for me >> because I love Blade. Blade was like my favorite comic book when I was a kid. >> Yeah.

Yeah. I just didn't I didn't think they were serious about I didn't I I couldn't imagine why would Wesley I I always thought it was not real. >> I think Wesley thought that I was just a grappler and think he knew that I was doing jiu-jitsu. I don't think he knew my background.

Mhm. >> And so like they were Wesley was talking to them saying, "Oh, he he thinks he's going to be able to stop you from taking him down and he's going to catch you with a knee while you're coming in to try to take him down." Like I go, "Oh, he wants to stand up." I go, "I'm way better at that." >> Yeah. Yeah. I was I was wondering how that even occurred.

I I didn't think that was serious. I was like, "Okay, >> it was serious." Yeah, it was serious. It went on for a long time. It was a lot of negotiation to the point where I even talked about it on the UFC broadcast once.

>> I said, "Come on, Wesley, sign the contract. I'm getting bored training. Let's do this." Like, I have to do it now. I was like 35 or 36.

I was like, "I don't have much time left. If we're going to do this, we have to do this now." Like, come on. >> Let's go. >> And then he decided not to.

And then I'm like, "That's probably for the better." >> Yeah. I I knew Wesley for a while. I remember uh when he was first telling me about the sovereign being sovereign. >> Yeah.

That's where they got him with that sovereign citizenship. >> Yeah. And I was like I I'm I'm >> I wish I was friends with them. I would have said, "Dude, they're going to lock you up." >> I was I'm super protective of my friends.

I've always been that way. And with Wesley, I was always like my thing is he used to have people around him that I'm like, you know, we we have little gettogethers at my house or whatever. I'm like, don't bring any of those [... ] or it's going to be a problem. You know, cuz there's there's people that just I felt like were hangers on and >> you know that kind of a thing.

And I was always like, "Yeah, man. You are you good?" And you know, are you um staying healthy? I'm I've always been that way. Cuz the way I look at it, he's he's a big brother.

If not for him, it may not be for me. You know, he gave me some good advice early on. He always encouraged me if I'm doing if I have a movie that's overseas, get there. you know, show up in in those overseas markets and let them know that you're you're down, you know, and um I took that to heart and and that helped me out in my career a great deal.

And so I you know, I look at it like that. I've never I'll never say anything derogatory about him or whatever. So, I mean, I'm always I just recently tried to reach out to him like a couple days ago just to check in, man, because I I you know, I I I wish him the best and and you know, I want to I want him to like really, you know, start kicking ass again. >> I would love to see him return as Blade.

>> Yeah, that would be cool. That would be >> He could do it, too. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> An older Blade. >> Mhm. >> He could do it. >> Yeah.

>> [... ] He was good in the original Blade. That's that opening scene. That was one of the best scenes in any action movie of all time when it's that vampire party >> and the the the the sprinklers start spraying blood and they're about to kill that dude and all a sudden Wesley shows up. >> Yeah, man.

It's what what really gets on my nerves is that, >> you know, he saved Marvel, man. >> That movie saved Marvel, you know, right? >> Oh, yeah. That movie was a huge hit.

>> Even Stan Lee admits that. >> They were like in trouble until that movie. >> Isn't that crazy? Superhero movies are the biggest [... ] movies in Hollywood right now.

>> I mean, when they have a big budget movie, superhero movies are like the only movie that you can throw hundreds of millions of dollars and be sure it's going to kill it in the box office. >> Yeah. >> Whether it's the Avengers or Spider-Man or Superman or whoever the [... ] it is. That's the only kind of movie that Hollywood's like, "Yeah, okay.

We'll throw 500 million at this one." >> Yeah. And, you know, it's it's I'm not a big fan of those things. I I I I know it's not they they didn't design it for people like me, right? >> So, it's it's for the fan base.

And to me, it's like uh you know, I >> they they they tend to meld into each other as far as I'm concerned. >> They do. They do. There's only so many times you could tell the stories.

There's only so, you know. >> Yeah. >> But I I still enjoy them. I still enjoy some of them.

They're fun. >> Yeah. I I I like when people are believable, >> right? believable.

>> Yeah. There's nothing believable about those. >> Yeah. You know, like the actors that were like, you know, have some quirkiness and some some, you know, edge to them, right?

You know, so yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, maybe I'm being unfair because I had really hadn't seen a lot. Maybe I owe it to myself to give some.

>> No, I think you you got it there. It's simple entertainment. It's a silly release and escape. That's all it is.

It's not a great There's no great films that are superhero films, >> right? Yeah. Cuz sometime I'm like, "Oh yeah, she's 90 pounds and she just threw a Okay, let me >> like Charlie's Angels or something." >> Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, stilettos." >> And it's like anytime somebody lands in a three-point stance and then looks up, I'm like, I I just changed the channel.

>> I'm just like, "Stop. Just stop." >> Yeah. >> But, you know, but people love those things. I'm like, "That's cool." >> I don't know why they have so much appeal, especially in the American market.

M >> people, that is one of the only movies that you can make that's guaranteed to be huge. >> Yeah, it's it's McDonald's, man. >> It's McDonald's. But I I remember when >> that's it.

>> Yeah. I remember when they you know, you had uh what was that like uh the 300, >> you know? That was like nobody nobody knew anybody, >> right? >> But that was just such a breath of fresh air cuz it looked like some bad asses that were real.

Yeah. >> You know what I mean? I'd like to see more of that kind of a thing. Like, you know, not the sty star power thing, but just some [... ] that you believe, right?

>> You know what I mean? That that would, you know, that would attract me. >> Also, the style of that movie was so unique cuz it blended fantasy with reality. It blended like comic history, too.

Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, knock wood.

I got some some things in in the works. >> Do you? >> Yeah. What are you working on?

>> Oh, man. I' I've been blessed, man. I've got some really good movies coming out and some things that I'm planning on doing. Really, I'm getting to a place where I'm really shooting the things that I want and I've been producing and all that stuff.

So, you know, so, you know, I have movies that have their have their body count, but also have a little bit of like something to say. >> You know what I miss? >> What's that? >> Spawn.

>> Oh, man. >> Bro, >> a lot of people Yeah, >> people forgot about Spawn. You don't hear about it anymore, >> right? Yeah, man.

That was [... ] great. >> Yeah, I had my Man, you didn't see Most people didn't see the first adaptation of it. The first uh uh Well, I saw a cut of the movie before it. I mean, at this time, it had like 71 special effects in it, but Bob Sheay at the time that was running New Line liked the that version.

He just gave the director Kart Botch to to just add whatever he wanted. And the director was a special effects guy. So he started throwing special effects in there that was really killing the story which kind of drove me up up a wall cuz then like you didn't even see why my character wanted to get back. you didn't even see the the life that I wanted to get back to because there was so much special effects.

And even when I saw the final version, I'm like, "What the hell is going on?" People that knew Spawn, they were fine with it cuz they understood the character. But for me, it was like the story got all convoluted, but like, you know, but I mean, people love it. It was a I think it was a thing for its time. But, uh, unfortunately, I saw a version of it that made you care about it.

I understand, but I cared about the one that I saw and I felt like I don't understand how Spawn sort of escaped the zeitgeist. You don't ever hear about Spawn anymore. >> You know what I mean? Like there's all these >> superhero films, all these different things, but Spawn was unique and it was really good and dark and >> Yeah.

I always said if they did another one should do it just like the comic book. M >> make it hard R or or non-rated >> because I mean like to do a Spawn PG like how how we did PG-13? >> Yeah. >> It's like what do you want?

You trying to go for a breakfast cereal like spawn holes or something? Like >> like come on, man. Let's go hard like the cartoon, right? >> See if you can find a clip from Spawn >> cuz it's I I feel like no one talks about it anymore.

It's kind of weird. >> They damn sure talked to me about it, >> bro. It was good. What year was this?

>> 97. >> Wow. >> They were [... ] great, man. >> Now stay sharp.

The night is young. >> Evil has a new enemy. Justice has a new weapon. And the world has a new hero.

The memories. >> Bro, that was a [... ] great movie, man. New Line Cinema Presents. >> Yeah, >> that was a great movie.

How many did you guys do? >> One. >> Just one. >> There was nothing else, wasn't there?

Something else like a series? >> It was a cartoon first. >> That's right. >> Yeah, it was a Well, it was comic book, then it was a cartoon on HBO.

>> Oh, that's right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh Keith David was the the voice of Spawn on that one.

>> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Yep. And so, yeah, >> but that was a big hit, >> I think.

So, >> it made his money back. Yeah. >> I mean, I remember it was very popular. Like, everybody was talking about people got excited about especially people like me that like the comic books, >> right?

>> They were very into it. >> Yeah. >> I was always surp that that that even the comic book spawn doesn't get brought up anymore. >> Right.

Yeah. I every now and then like when like I'm off doing a movie, whatever, I drive by comic book stores, I I go and I just start signing [... ] right? The spawn stuff. So, there's still stuff there.

>> Oh, yeah. There's always going to be a hardcore fan base. >> Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, you know, there's people like there's still hardcore about that. And then, uh um Tom McFarland is has talked about doing another Spawn for the last 25 years. >> It would be huge. But the thing, the weird thing is is like, okay, I I wish you all the best of luck, bro, but he you created the comic book.

When he's talking about doing another Spawn, I'm like, you haven't done a first one >> like the comic book. >> No, he's he's not a director. Like, he's it's just like Stan Lee hasn't directed a Marvel movie, >> right? and and Tom McFarland is talking about doing Another Spawn, but I'm like, well, that would be the first time a person that created a comic book directed and produced a movie that I know of, right?

Because even though he talks about he's going to do one and he had this concept that he talked to me about then he said he wanted to you know I guess he wanted to use Jamie Fox and he talked about this concept that Spawn would be you wouldn't see him and it's like like Jaws he would never be around but just people would get [... ] up all of a sudden they're you know like a mist would come and they're people are destroyed I'm like good luck with that you Oh, I don't know. But but but he's been talking about it for a while and people say, "Oh, man.

You know, I'm I'm I'm sad that you're not the next SP that they're using Jamie." I'm like, "When is it going to happen?" They've been he's been saying that for a long time, but I'm going, "Hey, maybe somebody is going to give him that amount of money to do a movie when he's never directed anything before." >> Right. Right.

>> He hasn't directed anything before. He visited set a few times because he created a comic book. Directing a movie is something completely different. You know what I mean?

So, I'm like, all power to you if that's happening. But >> it's like I I wonder why people believe it. >> Yeah. That's a lot to bite off to especially a movie like that which would probably be a large budget.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. But uh you know, but it's >> and then you're gonna get the executives involved and they're gonna [... ] with it because they always have to have their say. >> Yeah, man.

It's a it's a miracle that a movie gets done the way it's intended. Period. >> Yeah. >> I'm like a lot of times when a movie works, I go, "How did some executive not [... ] this movie up?" >> Right.

Right. >> I mean, I'm I'm always like, >> there's only a few guys that can get away with a movie where everybody just leaves them alone. There's a few Tarantinos out there where everybody, let him go. Just let him go.

>> Yep. Yeah. Yeah. >> If you tried to make Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and you weren't a successful director, you were just some guy with an idea, someone would come along and [... ] that up.

>> Oh, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. Luckily, I'm People are leaving me alone.

I've been I've been directing and, you know, doing my own thing. They go, "Okay, you got this." Okay. Like I say, I'll give you the body count. But now, if I could put stuff in it, you know >> what is going on with Jamie Fox doing Tyson?

Cuz that's been rumored for a decade at least. >> Yeah, that's another thing. It's like weird that Jamie Fox wants to do a Tyson and a Spawn, but it's like I don't I don't take it personally. Very talented guy.

But yeah, I think Jamie does a very good impression of Mike Tyson. >> Yeah, but you got to gain like 100 pounds, >> right? And then >> Jamie's got to get he's got to pack on that meat at 50. >> But then why?

I just I just sit there and I go, why? when Tyson's life itself has been very, you know, transparent, >> right? >> And so you can see the real guy in in documentary form and everything else. >> What story do you have to tell?

>> That's true. >> I'm not trying to be a hater, but I'm like I just I'm I'm just curious. >> The only thing that would be interesting is seeing like Jamie do it. Seeing him pull like you pulled off Ray Charles.

Like seeing him pull it off. That would that would be the appeal of it, I think. >> Right. But yeah, I in my personal opinion, I don't think that's enough.

You got to tell the story, >> right? I know what you're saying. >> Yeah, you got to you got it's got to be some compelling story. Um I mean, hell, I mean, people saw Titanic, you know how it's going to end, >> but you had to you had to present a story, >> right, >> there, you know, >> but Jamie is so versatile.

>> He is, >> you know, I mean, there's very few guys that can do all the different things that he can do. He could sing, he can act, he could do standup, and and he could do all kinds of different characters. And I mean, and he's so believable in so many different role. You know what I watched the other day, which is a [... ] great movie that I forgot was so great, is Collateral.

>> Oh, hell yeah. >> Oh my god. >> No. No.

When Jamie had Collateral and Ray to me, like there was You couldn't have had a better year, >> right? Two completely different. >> Yes. Absolutely.

Absolutely. You know, so I mean, >> and he became those people. He became Ray Charles. >> Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> And as good as he can sing, him singing as Ray Charles was insane. >> It's one of the best I mean performances ever.

>> Ever, you know, ever. >> But so is Collateral. >> He He really played that dude in Collateral. You believed it.

And [... ] >> Tom Cruz. >> Oh my god. Tom Cruz really proved something to me in that damn movie cuz I never been think I would never think I would ever be scared of Tom freaking Cruz, >> right? >> And how convincing he was.

>> He's a bad [... ] He is a bad He's crazy as batshit, but he's a bad [... ] You brought it in that you have to be that crazy to do all the stunts that that guy does. I mean, he's 60 years old. He's jumping off buildings and [... ] and breaking his ankle. >> Yeah.

Just like Johnny Depp. Like I'm like Johnny Depp when he he did Black Mass. >> Mhm. >> Like like I'm like, "Oh, you had that in you?" Holy [... ] >> And just like with Tom Cruz, I'm like him having that character in him.

>> There's a scene in Collateral that tactical instructors play. Yes. >> The scene when >> double tap like he he whips it back. Double tap.

Double tap. >> He knocks the guy's gun out of the way. Pulls it out. >> And it's so fast and so smooth.

See if you can find that scene, Jamie. It's a scene where they're trying to take Tom Cruz's briefcase and he's in an alleyway. >> Yep. >> Yeah, that I played that over and over myself.

>> The amount of times that he must have drilled that to get that >> unholstered the gun, pull it out, shoot him, shoot the other dude so smooth and the way he did it so professional. I mean, looks like a legit hit man. >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah, that that that was that that that character I mean from start to finish >> like to me proved a lot. >> Yeah. I mean he embodied that guy >> and and that my briefcase is your briefcase. Yeah, it is.

Why you want it back? Your wallet. What else you got for me? Huh?

Come on, son. >> Yeah, I actually visited that set when they were shooting that. No, not not that scene, but it was another it was another um uh day. And it was I remember it was weird because they were shooting something and they were shooting Tom behind Tom Cruz's head and they had eight camera angles just behind his head.

I'm like and I'm looking at the the you know the video village where they made sure they had any they had a choice of whatever perfect thing that they want. They it was the craziest thing. I'm like, and I guess Michael Man, he's known for like shooting a lot, but it was like eight cameras that just behind the dude. >> That's crazy.

>> Yeah. I'm like, this is a whole another like level. >> Yeah, it was crazy. It's >> a great [... ] movie.

That movie holds up. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

That that's Prime Jamie, man. >> Yep. Yep. And the fact that he's got that much range that he can do this nerdy dude who's terrified, doesn't know what the [... ] is going on, he's just driving a car >> and all a sudden he has his hitman with him and then he gets wrapped up in this whole thing.

>> Yeah. But as a fan, I'm I want to see him do something else like that. >> Right. Right.

>> You know what I mean? Like something like that requires what he can do. >> And there's a lot, you know, that's one of the things a lot not a lot of things out there sometimes, you know? So, you know, he's been doing things that I I think show, you know, certain parts, but like to where he was going in Collateral and and Ray, you know, it'd be nice to see that stuff again.

>> It's got to be hard to find those roles, right? And when you find those roles, there's probably like six or seven A-list dudes that they have like on a a board somewhere and they're trying to figure out who's the guy for this. >> Yeah. But I believe >> who's going to sell the most.

I believe you got to create your own stuff, man. Put it this way. Nobody was going to write Black Dynamite for me. >> Right.

Right. Right. >> You know what I mean? I had to, you know, my thing is largely creating my own lane.

>> That was a fun movie, by the way. >> Oh, thanks, man. >> Really fun. >> Thanks, man.

So, yeah, man. So, I I luckily like I I enjoyed writing. I I was always looked at everything from I was always fascinated about this industry and uh I sold a lot of things as a writer separate from the acting thing and so you know just putting it all together is something that's like I really enjoy doing. >> How do you dedicate your time when you're writing?

Do you do do you just like have an idea and say okay for the next x weeks I'm going to sit down and dedicate myself to this? >> Dude it's all different. A lot of times I will see the entire movie. Like when I did Black Dynamite, dude, I was I was in China getting going to set in I was in uh in Shanghai and I was listening to James Brown Super Bad and I just started thinking about I'm goof.

I'm laughing. I'm in the back of this car and there's a driver wondering what the hell is going on with me. I'm seeing the whole goddamn movie, including a Nunchuk fight scene with with Richard Nixon and and and I'm I'm laughing and you know, I started jotting stuff down because I was it occurred to me, man. Like I just like I remember one day I was thinking like, wow, man.

Like growing up, we had Shaft and well, you had we had uh Superfly and the Mac and and all that posters like that that we idolized. And I'm going >> those were pimps. >> There was something wrong with my childhood. Why am I I'm like, >> what?

The Mac? Like that's a hero. And so it made me really think about it. And I'm like, and I'm looking at these movies and like Jim Brown and Fred Williamson are like killing like 60 people and it's okay, right?

>> Everybody's like this. They have a club and then they got all these women and all. And I'm like, this is actually hilarious. If I do a movie that depicted it exactly like it is, thinking about this, one of the biggest movies of that time was Three the Hard Way.

I don't know if you remember that movie. Jim Brown, Fred Williamson, and Jim Kelly. >> Oh, yeah. I forgot about Jim Kelly.

>> Read the Hard Way. What was it about? It had the three predominant black exploitation stars, right? And the movie was about an evil Dr.

Feather who had these lers of liquid that he was going to put in the water systems of LA, Chicago, and New York that were going to kill all the black people. It's not a comedy. That's the movie. >> It's not a comedy.

It was going to It was going to give cell anemia to all the black people. Now the the the conspiral thing I've been a black man for a long time and it is really funny because in the community conspiracy is a big thing right so it like that whole conspiral thing oh they trying to get you that kind of a thing it really it its engine was that that paranoia that this liter of liquid was going to kill black people >> well there was so much evidence that those conspiracies were real like Tuskegee. >> But of course, that that's that's something that's like it's it's on its feet, though. But come on, a leader, something this big in the water systems that was going to kill all the black people.

And that's not a comedy. That was a serious movie. But when you look at it, that's hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious to think that you can do a movie about that.

So to do a movie I thought that really really talked about that time period where it was kind of this overcorrection because you know you had in the 60s there were like you know butlers and maids and all that kind of stuff but now you had these super overcorrected badasses that could just do anything right and I thought it was hilarious to look at it and treat it as if it were like back in that day like like a lost movie. Actually, Tarantino was somebody I was talking to about that whole thing when I was putting Black Dynamite together >> and he had certain ideas, but you know, I kind of went my own direction with it. But yeah, man.

So, >> yeah, things like that, like, you know, I I was I've gotten to a place where I'm, you know, putting these things together that really interest me and I'm finding that there's an audience that likes it as well.

But, yeah, man. So uh you know it it just occurred to me that it was bizarre. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

So I mean you know >> so for that movie that movie just came to you. >> Yeah. >> But >> it came to me just like the whole movie came to me in a ride to set. >> Is that normal for ideas or do you sometimes sit down and say like I want to write an idea about blank?

>> Sometimes. sometimes like I have a movie that the the next movie I'm going to do is a a sequel to a movie I did called As Good as Dead, right? Uh and it became um Samuel Goldwin's one of their most successful movies. I I I wrote the idea.

It was based off my brother. My brother, he he went from Florida into Mexico and started a family. He just like fell in love with Mexico. And I kind of based my my character on him and he's basically a cop that's like hiding out in Mexico and you know trying to avoid uh this you know syndicate or whatever that's trying to kill him.

But um that movie just came to me. I I wrote it. We were in production like two months later and we actually got the movie done within a year and it was >> How did you get it made? so quick.

>> Yeah. I mean, they they responded to the script, and it was kind of like a grown-up uh karate kid in a way. So, my character, you don't know what's this black dude doing, working construction in Mexico, and he's, you know, he's got his wing chung dummy. He's training in his backyard, and it's a kid who's trying to avoid the gangs that he befriends that he's he teaches this unique kind of martial art.

And so one thing leads to another. This kids gets good at it and they trace the style back to my character and then you know then the the bad guys are trying to kill me and I have to fight back. So what we're doing um we're about to do a sequel. I start that in a couple of weeks actually.

So I wrote that one. Um but yeah, so I I feel like I don't know. I I'm I'm still a fan of movies. I I don't I wouldn't write something I wouldn't want to see.

And I've seen a lot, you know. I I think I understand this industry. I understand um there's a lot of stories that that I think could be told with a with a fresh ways and with the action and martial arts that could be new and exciting. Like I'm I'm getting to a place where I'm trying to make fight scenes look very real like including uh choreographing mistakes.

>> You know what I mean? I think people have become so much more sophisticated watching UFC fights and all that type of stuff. I think you got to raise the bar to make something look real. And there's a lot of the stuff that's in the, you know, the the superhero movies and whatever that you just kind of go, okay, you're seeing choreography for choreography's sake, >> right?

>> And you're not invested because you don't feel like you're looking at a real fight. >> And so I like to try, you know, use my platform to step that up a bit. >> Yeah.

That's hard as a especially as a person who was a martial artist to watch fight scenes and go you have to kind of suspend disbelief and go all right >> well play out kind of like you know it's weird but you know kind of full circle it's kind of going back to the way Bruce Lee did stuff >> and he's a little faster than the other person he has a little bit more technique and in a in you know and if you imagine like even if I imagine you in a real fight your technique is not going nowhere and other people's not going to have that same technique you'll be you You beat somebody to the punch, you do things that would logically uh give you the edge.

That's what you shoot. >> You know what I mean? >> Right. >> Yeah.

So, it's it's not like you got to do a lot of camera tricks. >> If you're moving faster and stronger than another another person, >> well, there it is. There it is. So, uh, luckily, you know, I mean, I can put things on screen that kind of resemble what things might look like, you know, and you get the bene benefit of the doubt because, you know, you're you're in the heroic position.

>> It's just very hard to do that. It's very hard to make it look real. That's there's a real art to that. >> Yeah.

Yeah. But like like with the the movie that you turned down, Blood and Bone, >> I >> I turned down John Wick 4, too, though. I could Oh, >> I turned down a lot of movies. >> You do you did you did the right thing because what you're doing you could not you know this could not be more you know up your alley doing the things that you're doing but like >> John Wick was hard.

I'm a giant John Wick fan especially John Wick one and eventually >> there's going to be a John Wick 7 so you can decide to do >> they got kind of crazy. They're over the top now but even John Wick one was totally unrealistic. >> Oh man. >> Totally unreal.

But so fun. M >> I [... ] love those movies. >> Yeah. Well, I I got something that's kind of in that vein that I just finished.

There's a lot of body count, but a lot a lot of CQB. I've been I've been studying that for a while. >> Uh lot lot of like CQB. >> Oh, close quarter combat.

Of course, close quarter battle. >> Um but um you know, I've been doing like, you know, uh a lot of like tactical training and kind of getting myself I may I may compete at at some point. Oh, really? >> Yeah.

Yeah. I' I've gotten pretty into it. My >> Where do you train at? >> Well, a lot of places.

I I train with a guy named uh Tyler Gray. He's Delta Force. A lot I had a lot of friends who were like, you know, special force guys. >> You ever go to Terran Tactical?

>> Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. I go to Terran quite a bit.

>> That guy's the best. >> Oh, yeah. He's he's a man. He's amazing.

>> You want to talk about someone who's very technical? >> Oh my god. just he shoots from the hip like better than anybody who's using a laser, you know. >> No, he's preposterous.

>> It's >> always iron sights. >> Yeah. >> You know, he doesn't I mean, he uses red dots, but you know, he prefers iron sights. He's like, they never fail.

They never go wrong. Yeah. >> And he's so crazy accurate. It's wild to watch.

>> And when you think about like how long how fast could you just take out everybody in this damn room? It's kind of >> It's kind of spooky. >> Yeah, it is spooky. >> Yeah.

Well, it's also he's so calm about it, too. >> Yeah. >> It's weird. Like almost like autistic, like weird.

Just [... ] Rainmananish. >> Yeah. >> Like, what the [... ] When you watch him do it, like uh many times I've gone to his range and trained and then, you know, people will go him into it like do a do a run like do this and he's like, "Okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that.

I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And then I'm going to pull this out right here." >> Yeah. >> Like it's it's crazy.

You're like, "What the [... ] did I just watch? That's crazy." >> And then you see how many times he's won the championship. >> Oh, yeah. Ridiculous.

>> And like there's only a few people that won consecutive years and he's got like seven years in a row and chunk just chunks of I'm like this is crazy. >> Yeah. He's a very unique talent. >> Yeah.

>> Very unique talent. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A buddy of mine, you know, like Tyler Gray, he just >> he he's been Delta.

He's been uh he's been decorating. He's Oh my god. his place in in Vegas. He's he creates guns and he's got like more in his arsenal than every gun store you can imagine.

But like he's like he's something else. Like he one of the most mellow people you ever want to meet in your life. And but he's he's been the guy uh been the consultant and director on on Navy Seals for years and you know but I got a lot lot of friends doing that. So my my brother, he just he just uh retired from secret service and you know you know Danny Danny Hester.

>> No. >> Uh he was a former um Mr. Mr. Olympia classic physique, but he's gotten into I mean I shoot with these guys all the time and and actually Flex Wheeler, you know, a lot of the guys are, you know, into the gun stuff, you know, so we we go set up stuff and, you know, >> but once you start training, you realize like how difficult it is and how long the learning curve is >> cuz you think, oh, you point, you pull the trigger, what's the big deal?

M >> then you you get into it and then you see someone like Taran or someone who's competing and you go, "Oh, oh, there's this is just like everything else, just like karate, like jiu-jitsu, like there's levels." Oh, yeah. Levels and levels and levels and you see people competing and you go, "Oh, wow." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'd like to do that someday.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You you're in a great place for it. >> Yes.

Yeah. Texas is a great place for it. >> Oh, yeah. >> There's a staccato range that we go to sometimes.

It's awesome. They have all these different setups out there. They have this old west town >> with all these different like targets set up and you run from doorway to doorway. >> It's pretty badass.

>> Yeah. Jon Jones I see is doing quite a bit of >> Jones is a [... ] scary human being. He's so and if you get past him he's got his [... ] dog Dutch >> which is you know he brings a Belgian Malmo everywhere he goes. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I know um my my good friend you Josh Barnett. He's he's at Terren a lot too.

>> Yeah. He's another scary human being. >> Yeah. Yeah.

and a very analytical, intelligent, >> one of the most well. >> He is like Jeopardy smart. He's like ridiculous. You can't you >> there's not many things that he doesn't know.

>> He's amazing. I I watch you guys uh you guys on this show. I was very flattered. He start he mentioned >> out of nowhere he started talking about uh how he he was inspired by myself and my wife and that you know I actually got me real choked up.

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, "What, man?" You know, Josh is a great guy. >> Yeah.

You know, oh, incidentally, my wife is somebody that uh I don't know. Um you you met her a long time ago when you last saw her sliding down the lug. >> Oh, wow. That's crazy.

>> Yep. >> That's crazy. On Fear Factor. >> On Fear Factor.

>> Wow. >> Yep. She was sliding down the luxur when you last saw her and then she slid right into my my arms. >> Yeah.

Yeah. We've been doing we've done our our sixth movie together. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah.

So we we've been you know we got you two two our teenagers are we got one less well we got two left in the house going to college now >> so you know we're about to be nesters. Yeah man. >> So yeah it's wild how these things uh kind of connect. >> It is wild.

It is wild. Yeah. Josh is uh one of the the he's like one of the best examples to me of when people think of a martial artist or think of a cage fighter, former UFC heavyweight champion and you think of a guy like oh probably some brute some dude have a conversation with him. Yes.

>> And you realize the depth of his intellect and the depth of his knowledge like how much he knows about >> Nichi. He can quote Nii go like he's he's so well read. He he makes his own whiskey. Yeah.

You know, like he's a very interesting guy, >> man. What a Renaissance guy, man. >> Exactly. A real Renaissance guy.

>> Yeah. We we usually we have the same birthday, so sometimes we throw parties together, you know. Yeah. When he's when he's in town, he's always in Japan and >> just all over the place, man.

He's like He's an amazing human being. >> He really is. Yeah. And again, one of the best examples like when people have a stereotype of what they think a cage fighter is.

Yeah. And Josh was the youngest ever UFC heavyweight champion. >> Yeah. Yeah.

And man, we that's probably like I've trained more with him than so many people like, you know, and uh it just what a great friendship and what a what a inspirational thinking person, >> you know, and you know, so yeah. And you know, he did um Never Back Down uh three with me. We we shot that in Thailand. >> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it like training in Thailand?

That's got to be fun. >> Oh man. Uh kind of hot. >> Yeah.

But the motherland of Muay Thai. >> Yeah. Yeah. Again, like with every style, there's it's its strengths and its weaknesses.

>> You know, a lot of a lot of them, you know, a lot of things around, you know, they go around and not straight, right? Straight. You know, of course, the quickest distance between two points is a straight line. So, it's not a whole lot of um well, they could do with a lot more boxing technique and and uh some of those things, but man, talk about toughness, >> that kind of a thing, but it's kind of a tragic like how they they beat the [... ] out of themselves.

>> By the time they're in their 30s, man, they're like >> Yeah. They're busted up. >> Yeah. >> Well, they start fighting when they're very very young.

>> But it's also led to them training so intelligently. You know, one of the things about Tai training, >> they don't spar like a lot of Americans do where they beat the [... ] out of each other. They play spar. >> Yeah.

>> And that play sparring >> allows them to not get beat up by the time they get into the ring on Saturday because a lot of them are fighting every week. >> So, they do touch sparring, you know, and a lot of people say, "Oh, you can't get good touch sparring." Well, you certainly can. Oh, absolutely. Especially when you're fighting every weekend.

Yeah. That's probably the best way to do it because you're you're you know just working on timing, pattern recognition, and just getting your just your reps in. >> Yeah. Just like with jiu-jitsu, of course, when you don't muscle things, when the technique you let the technique do its its thing, >> that's so much better, >> right?

>> Yeah. And you you you maintain so much better as well, >> right? And I think one of the best examples of that is like Sai because Sanchi is in his 40s and he's still [... ] people up. It's crazy watching that guy fight, but you look at him, very unassuming guy, you know, he's not ripped, you know, he's an older guy, but he's just his timing and his smoothness and his the way he moves, it's very playful, but he's just [... ] people up.

>> Yeah. Yeah, man. It makes me I miss Thailand. I actually did my We did our wedding ceremony in Thailand.

>> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. And you know who was uh who who uh officiated part of it was Tony J. Oh, really?

>> Tony J did the Buddhist part of our wedding. He did the water blessing and he also sang at at the wedding. >> Yeah. Yeah.

He's like >> Yes. Yes. One of one of the greatest martial artists ever. >> What a great movie that was.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> For martial arts technique that that was like one of the first times like real true Muay Thai was exhibited in a film. Like super high level.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Man, Tony just my god. Like he would do the these incredible feats in front of you.

Just unbelievable. He he can do a spin. He do a somersault, hit you in the in the shoulder, and just tap you like that with your foot with his foot. >> Just he had that that much control.

It's unbelievable. >> Yeah. Yeah. He he was sick recently, but he's uh I think he's overcoming uh I think it was uh I think it was a c word, man.

Yeah. You know, I haven't talked to him in a minute, but I just found out about it like about I don't know, a couple weeks ago. >> Yeah, he was I I knew he got thinner, but I'm I'm hoping that he's uh he's better now. >> Yeah, he's a legend.

>> Yeah, he's something else. It's so fascinating to me how different parts of the world develop a different style of martial arts and Thailand in particular >> because of the fact that there was so much gambling and there was so many fights that they developed this very heavy leg kick clinch elbow knee style. Yeah. >> It was just very different than a lot of the other styles.

>> Mhm. >> You know, and for a long time was really dominating in kickboxing. But then you're starting to see other styles like particularly a lot of Kyokushin guys now specifically out of Japan. >> Have you ever seen this kid Yuki Yoza?

>> Is he Kyokin? >> Yeah. Kyokushian guy out of Japan who's dominating people. >> He he fights very different man.

He's [... ] up a lot of Thai guys with calf kicks. >> Okay. >> Oh god, dude. >> No, I hadn't heard heard I just officiated a Kyushin tournament yesterday.

What was Sunday? Was that two days ago? >> Uh, yeah. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm still connected in the Kyoki.

I mean, been doing that, you know, since I was a kid. >> Well, you did the whole thing like where you have to fight like a 100 guys in a day. You did all that. >> Well, I've done a 30 man.

I haven't done 100. I'm exaggerating, but it's like a lot of people. >> Yeah. Yeah.

Which is the toughest, honestly. It's a I I love it. It was the toughest thing I'd ever I ever had to really face because you come to a point where you want to give up and you have to just, you know, kind of walk the burning sands. >> What is it like walking the next day, >> man?

I had I mean, I remember the first time I did a 10-man and I had several knees on my legs, put it that way. So, because they they destroy your legs so bad. >> Yeah. >> Right.

I did a 20 man one other time and made the mistake of uh having a um I had like a a energy drink beforehand which is stupid because now my heart is racing higher than normal and so it made it even harder but somewhere around like inevitably you get to a place where I remember the 12th guy I'm like what the [... ] are you doing? Why are you here? You know but you have to dig deep >> and you got 18 more to go. >> Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm like, man, but honestly, >> that's such a hard style. >> Yeah. But man, it's something about getting, you know, because you're you're going to be faced with yourself.

You're going to be you you want to quit and you have to just dig down and get through it. And there's nothing like it when you accomplish it. Uh because you know where you can go. You know that most of the time when you you're you tell yourself you're done, you're not.

What a valuable lesson it is >> to know that about yourself. >> Yeah. >> And you can't there's no substitute for that. And it's just something that you just benefit.

Uh I remember the last time I did this um we had to train out in um in uh BA Canada and because usually these things are in Japan and people from all over the style they come and they train you're like training eight hours a day. You got these little lunch breaks and I didn't think it through. I I this I think the last one was like about five six years ago. I you know wanted to challenge myself.

I want to do this, but I'm by myself and most people come with family members and all that kind of stuff. >> So, you're by yourself. You're a movie star. >> Yeah.

And I had the target on my back, but it's like, of course. Yeah. So, and so and it's like we'd have a training thing and then you got a certain amount of time to go eat, but then people want to take pictures with me and I'm the last guy to get into the to the lunch thing. And then it's like, oh [... ] I got 10 minutes to eat and then I got to get back in the next training session.

>> And you have a full stomach. Yeah. And then then you got like I mean it kind of sucked but I I taught myself something. I said you know you could be three hours in I tell myself I just got here.

I just got here and I dig deeper and that whatever and then the last few days you're just fighting down to the last person and you know there's people that's like you know they got their their eye on you because like you know I've got the bullseye on me. But the great thing is dude like I say I learned a lot. I'm I'm doing footwork with Frankie for years. I'm boxing technique.

I've got Benny Oritz. Bill Wallace was my instructor. I've got so many things in my arsenal. And to test myself, it's such a it's such a great benefit to to you know, and it was weird because I was thinking like, am I insane?

Because I had a movie that I was going to be starting in like a week later. I could have just been messed up. I could have had a broken leg or whatever. A lot of times you leave with a souvenir.

They call it like, you know, when you trade in Japan, a lot of the Japanese want to give you a souvenir that means a broken bone. But I had to try to, you know, overcome that. So in life, it's especially in this kind of coddled life I'm living, I don't get a chance to test myself that much. Right.

>> Right. And you know, yeah, I had to, you know, listen to my own complaints and and shut the [... ] up and get through it. Yeah. Oh, it's not fair because everybody's taking pictures and you're doing this and and I'm by myself.

No, no, that's not the point is get through it, you know. Yeah. And I'm so glad to do that. And I always like to that's why I like to train with champions and and stuff because you know that's you you want you you want to get through things it should be you should be tested.

I mean as a if I had a religion a large part of it if I was the head of my own religious cult would be that men go through something. There's a rights of passage. >> Yes. >> You got to know how to protect yourself and your family and your loved ones.

That to me is is paramount. >> You also have to know what's inside of you. Like the only way to find out is to test it. >> Exactly.

>> Because otherwise you get these dudes that have their chest pumped out and they're talking loud. Why are they doing that? Because they want to scare people off, >> right? >> Because they don't know what they're capable of.

They're terrified. >> Yeah. And you can't hide from yourself, >> right? >> And that's the thing.

I'm not going to [... ] myself. I like I want to know, you know, and and it's great. It's it's it's there's no there's no substitute uh for going through that. And that's the thing that I why I love fighters so much.

You know, you're you're you're you're basically naked to the world, >> right? >> Uh you have to dig down. You have to overcome things. That's why I love them so much because they are >> they're our gladiators.

They we we live vicariously through them. And that's why I'm a little dogged about actors receiving those accolades where they haven't done it, >> right? >> You know what I mean? Myself included.

I don't care if somebody says, "Oh, he's not a fighter. You know, he's an actor." Fine. You should think that way, >> right? >> But personally, it's it's something deeper for myself.

And I, you know, one person I think I I identify with that is you because I've seen you. I've seen you in the gyms back when it wasn't popular. And and we're doing it for reasons that are not it has nothing to do with glory or, you know, ego or anything like that. It's just for self-improvement.

>> Yeah. >> You know, and that's what it's about, man. Because it's about overcoming obstacles. And your biggest obstacle in the world is yourself.

>> Yeah. Yeah. My instructor when I was very young told me that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential. >> Exactly.

Exactly. >> It's so hard. >> Yeah. >> And people need something hard.

>> Yeah. And what about Kabib's uh what is what did Kabib say? Like what he says about discipline. >> Oh, that that rant, >> man.

I had to Oh, that >> I don't know if that rant is real. Somebody told me that rant is AI. >> What? >> Yeah.

Is it AI? >> I think so. >> Damn it. >> What?

>> Well, who cares? >> Well, yeah. in Kabib's voice and I bet Khabib would agree with every word it said. >> Yes.

Yes. You know, >> find that rant because let's pretend that it's not AI >> or it may be one of AI's greatest contributions to martial arts. >> Absolutely. >> Because becoming addicted to discipline.

>> Yeah. Every man addicted to something. >> Yeah. >> You know, such a great rant.

Here it is. Give me this. Give me this. >> It's such a [... ] great rant.

Started from the beginning, too. >> Every man addicted to something. Some smoke, some drink, some chase girls, some waste time. But real man, he addicted to discipline.

To early wakes, to prayer, to training, to silence. Discipline no need motivation. Discipline move without feeling. Discipline say I go anyway.

Even when tired, even when lonely. Discipline is best addiction. You want strong life, discipline build it. You want peace, discipline protected.

You want respect, discipline earn it. No shortcut, only work. Be men with control, not men with excuse. No cry, no blame.

You want better life, start with better habits, discipline every day until discipline become you. Every >> [... ] Yeah. >> Yeah. I I don't give a damn if that's AI or whatever.

Like, well, kudos to the AI person that put that together. >> Yeah. >> I >> That's how he lives. >> Yeah.

>> So, even if it's AI, he would go, "This is accurate." >> Yes. >> Well, I'll tell you what, man. that part of the world, Dagistan, you want to talk about a hard part of the world that is developing some of the baddest [... ] >> Even in Muay Thai, there's this cat coming out of Muay Thai at a out of Dagistan right now, Azadullah Imman Gazalyv who's like 22 years old and he is [... ] everybody up. A Dagistani Muay Thai fighter who has his own style.

He's this tall, lanky dude >> who's one of the most terrifying strikers alive right now. A lot of people think he's the best striker alive. >> Oh man, >> he's 22. 22 or 23 years old and he's just [... ] everybody up.

He fights for one FC. Give me a a highlight reel of this cat. >> This is just from a fight. I guess the highlight reel didn't pop up right away, so I just went with the first fight.

>> That's it. Best technical striker in the world. That's it. Click on that.

Just give me some of this. >> Just start it from the beginning. This dude, that tall dude with the beard. Azoddullah Imam Gazalivv.

Watch this [... ] What a style he has. I mean, it's just this long, tall, lanky dude. Perfect timing and measurement, and he just starts piecing dudes up. >> I think this is like his full fight.

>> Yeah. Well, I don't think so. If you scoot ahead, I think he [... ] this guy up pretty quick. I've seen this fight.

>> This guy he catches with one shot, but some dudes not so lucky. Oh man. >> Yeah, that was one shot, but it keeps going and then give me the next fight. >> He just starts lighting guys on fight, including ties and they they don't know what the [... ] is going on cuz he fights different than them.

I mean, he's a Muay Thai fighter. >> He's got that straight, you know, that he's exploiting the fact that they they got so much round technique. >> Exactly. A lot of front kicks up the middle and especially to the face, but also his spinning attacks.

He's got wicked spinning attacks, man. >> And also comes off angle a lot. His head's never on the center line. Super [... ] technical, >> but just lighting dudes on fire and just a a just an attacker.

Always attacking and has the benefit of that range, that long range. >> Yeah. >> I mean, >> nice >> dude is >> incredible. Incredible.

And again, 22 years old. Like look at that. So he's combining like taekwondo techniques, karate techniques, >> and precision Muay Thai. >> I mean, the problem with this this this not this style, but this form is that a lot of people aren't seeing it.

One FC is doing a really good job of highlighting a lot of like elite Muay Thai fighters. You know, they have Tawanchai over there and Sichai and all all these like highlevel guys, but in America, this for whatever reason has not caught on. And the only way this gu is going to get the kind of attention that I think he deserves is if he gets into MMA. >> But yeah, look at axe kick every spinning back fist.

Boom. >> His his straight rights are no joke. >> He's a laser beam. He's so focused.

He's so good, man. So good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

So the Dagistanis are now entering into Muay Thai which is a terrible sign for all these Muay Thai guys. >> Yeah. Yeah man. >> That's a those are hard tough ass people hard people who start at a very young age.

I mean a very young age like and also Dagistanis now because of Kabib and Islam they all know that this is a pathway to greatness. >> Yes. Yeah. >> And so there's heroes >> and there analy there's all these guys that have been world champions out of Dagistan now.

So, it's like you're seeing all these guys come out of there and some of these young guys that are coming up are so good. >> Yeah, >> they're so good. But this is fascinating to me that you take a guy who's adapted this tie style but then morphed it into something that's different. >> And again, like you were saying, a lot of straight techniques, especially when you're a tall guy like that for the weight class cuz I think he fights at 145 and when you're that tall at 145 and you got those straight shots down the middle.

>> Yeah. Like his right is just like you can't really see it. you know, right directly at him. >> But it's also the hooks, too.

His hooks are coming around the guard. Like everything is precise and his accuracy is spectacular. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

I'm I'm a student obviously. I I I watch every fight I can. I watch I watch kickboxing. I watch Muay Thai.

>> I watch jiu-jitsu matches. I watch it all. But I I'm always fascinated by these cats that stand out and this guy just stands out. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's great when somebody knows how to use their length like that. >> Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Yukiza, the Kyokushin guy that I was telling you, totally different. What this guy is doing is shelling up and getting in tight on guys and kicking the [... ] out of their inner thigh, outer calf, lower, like he's he's chopping at their legs. So, even Thai guys don't know what to do because they're not used to guys kicking their calves like this guy, right? >> So, he's inside going shin to shin.

And you know as well as anybody, Kilkushin guys have some of the most conditioned shins in the world. They're always battering shin to shin. And this dude is just getting in. And you see in the second round a lot of these tie guys like, "Oh [... ] I can't walk.

I can't move right. My calves don't work anymore." >> So the calf kick, which is really kind of revolutionized MMA. It's changed MMA >> because >> one, two hard calf kicks, you're compromised. You're not moving right anymore and you're not pivoting off that foot when you're punching.

So your punching powers diminished. >> This Yukioza guy is like putting it on tie guys with it. >> That's something I mean especially for for a Kyokin guy to I mean the the knock with Kyushin I've been doing it ever since I was a kid >> is just that no not developing facial you know exactly facial uh you know um blocks. >> Well this guy has incorporated Russian style boxing.

>> He's got Russian style boxing with Kyokushin karate techniques. Well, yeah, but that with the Russian style boxing that they're they really kind of mastered the non-elegraph kind of >> cuz it looks like they're not going fast. >> Yuki yoza highlight reel. >> He's there's a bunch of fights with him and tie guys and you know the first round tie guys are doing their thing and it looks you know like a normal fight but the Yukio just starts chopping at those calves inside cat and he's like multiple kicks to the the calf from in tight and close.

Yeah, that's punishing. >> And you see guys like playing at like, "Go ahead, kick me, kick me." And then after a while, they're like, "Fuck, don't kick me." >> They trying to get macho with them, pretending it's not working. >> But yeah, I don't like how what would it take to develop like >> this is like like your your thighs. >> You see how he's like he chop he's chopping when he's getting tight.

Look at this always. Look at how how much he's utilizing the like all the karate techniques but also in tight just destroys guys legs but also spinning back kicks all that other [... ] but look at his boxing is excellent too. >> Oo >> a lot of Muay Thai stuff dumping people but look at the he's constantly kicking the inside of the leg when they're committing to kicks. He's ch he's taking their legs out.

>> This dude I one of my favorite guys to watch right now. >> Like look a tie guy man. and he's just destroying their legs, man. >> Man, >> and excellent movement.

>> Yeah. >> And he comes out of a a very high level gym in Japan that's produced a lot of really Masaki Nori, another guy who's like that, who's a very similar guy who beat Tawanchai recently. Like these guys are just destroying people's legs. So, they're utilizing a lot of the question mark kicks, a lot of the stuff that that evolved in Kyushin, but putting it into kickboxing also with the toughness that is in, you know, a lot of the Kyokushin fighters.

>> Yeah. I see I see him slip into a like a Superman, >> which everybody's going to be susceptible for that. If you got a kick, a leg kick that that's that's that legitimate. >> Yeah.

They're going to bite on that. It's going to be open for them. >> And then he uses a Superman punch. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And another very young guy. So, there's these people that are exploiting like these holes and these styles cuz some of these >> Thai guys are so hard to beat.

They have by the time they they're competing and they're 25 years old, they might have 150 fights. So much experience. But >> this cat's figuring them out, man. It's really interesting to watch, you know.

>> Yeah. I I would love to see I wish there was like some kind of governing body that we can get all the like some like superstars or whatever get this guy versus this guy from >> Well, one is doing that a lot, but you know, one unfortunately is not that popular in America. What I love about one is they'll have grappling competitions, they'll have kickboxing, they'll have Muay Thai, and then they'll have MMA. They'll have them all combined on one card.

>> One is the one with that Michael Javell is on, right? Well, he was on that. Michael Chavevel's not with uh One anymore. Michael Chavevel is one of the best commentators.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> He's excellent.

Great guy, too. >> I'll be see I'll probably be seeing him in another like three weeks. I'm >> You going to Australia? >> Yeah.

Going to Australia. >> Nice. My wife and I we're going to Well, I we did a tour. I I do like seminars over there and we, you know, meet and greets and stuff like that.

We haven't done that in a while, but yeah, got some uh really good some good fighters out there. Oh yeah, John Wayne Parr. >> You know, some great fighters have come out of Australia. >> Yeah.

So, you know, we're going to have some fun out there. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. They're in New Zealand.

>> Oh, yeah. Another another another hot bed. >> Oh, yeah. >> Another hot bed for fighters.

Well, it's just warrior cultures, you know. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Warrior history.

>> I don't think I've never met an Australian that I didn't like. >> I know. They're the nicest [... ] people. >> Cool.

Yeah. >> Yeah. They're the coolest people. They're friendly, >> easygoing.

>> Yeah. You You have rights of passage still. >> Mhm. you know, places like that, you know, you I mean, it's that's one thing that I is sad about United States.

It's like we're not making men anymore. >> Not a lot of them. >> No. No.

>> When they are, they stand out. >> Yeah. You know, that's why it's like a lot of times in these movies, if you have an alpha male, a lot of times that alpha male, that American alpha male is being played by an Australian or somebody from >> Yeah. It's it's all, you know, it's like it's very rarely an American.

We got So, it's like such a trip, man. >> Wow. Masculinity is demonized here for some strange reason over the last couple of decades. >> Bro, I saw the beginning of a lot of it cuz, you know, like I said, I was a school teacher >> and I was right on the forefront seeing like everybody gets a trophy.

You know, these these kids, you know, they're >> you know, it's about their self-esteem and you got to protect that. I'm like, come on. And, you know, taking away competition. >> Yeah.

that just I saw the beginning of that [... ] >> and it's just so so bad. Then then these kids don't know how to deal with loss or anything and then they end up shooting a classroom, right? >> You know, it's >> Yeah. Dealing with loss is one of the most important lessons you could ever learn.

If you want to get better, lose. >> Yeah. >> Losing is the best medicine >> because you lose. I don't ever want to feel that again.

And then you start thinking about all the things that you cut corners on, all the things that you didn't do. What can I do differently to make sure that that never happens again that I never feel that feeling or you quit. >> Those are the two options. Either you get way better or you quit.

But winning sometimes you don't learn. You know, you go, "Well, I'm doing the right thing. I'm winning. I'm getting better.

I'm developing confidence. That's good." But man, sometimes a loss is the best medicine. >> Yeah, man. I I realized something when I was uh you know, I I I was I was born with some gifts.

Okay. Uh, I did one thing that got me into college is decathlon. I out of as a fluke I jumped into a a race against one of the the fastest guys on the track team and beat him, right? And that was just a fluke.

And the coach saw that. The track coach saw that and was like, "Oh my god, you're [... ] run running for the school." I was like, "Oh, okay." I like I was just like I didn't have anybody any kind of adult that took a liking to me like that and next thing you know I'm on the track team and I and I started I mean I was really good and then I wound up going to college because of that and incidentally that's the stuff that really kind of taught me uh to kind of uh evolve my martial arts because nowhere Where is there um a benefit of like cutting off fractions of seconds in movement like track?

Like >> like when I'm doing the shot put, >> well, a lot of times I was competing against people that were ginormous and all they have to do is stick their arm out and their arc was going to be better than mine. Well, I had to generate enough power to go at a 45 degree angle and in inertia and all that to get past them.

And with running, of course, if you shoot the gun off, all your motion has to go forward. If you go backward, you're going to be a step behind everybody. So, as far as efficiency of motion, I all the things I had to do with track, I started applying in fighting. And that's what kind of gave me cheat codes into things to where being super efficient really helped, right?

And so one thing would like kind of help the other, but like yeah, a lot of my my my whole track thing was a great benefit. But I did learn that I was kind of in a way like the Bo Jacksons or the Hershel Walkers. I was gifted and so when I would fight, I was, you know, I was a big guy that was fast and it didn't, you know, that was kind of rare. So fighting was easy to me.

But I learned that when I was as the celebrated fighter, that was less of a good martial artist because then I kind of would kind of flake off other things. Like I wasn't I didn't try as hard as other people. And that's another thing I don't know if Kabib really said, but it was a thing that he said about those gifted people. A lot of people who are gifted were not the best fighters.

Yeah, that is a quote from him. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And and I I took that, you know, that that same thing because I realized, >> dude, you're you're you're you're doing it wrong.

You're I mean my philosophy was like uh I feel I I adapted the philosophy of okay say um this kid Sean is 140 pounds and there's me and it takes me a thousand kicks to become fatigued and it takes him 100 kicks to become fatigued and he pushes to 120 and I push to 1001. Who's the better martial artist? He is. because he's pushed into his comfort zone.

He's pushing himself further. What if he one day gets to a thousand? For for him to go from a 100 to a,000, that's going to be a quality 900 >> that I don't have. >> Me being the gifted one, >> right?

>> I'm looking at it using the comparative method saying, well, you know, >> you know, I mean, at the end of the year, I used to kick a basketball rim. you know, I was I had that ability, but when I started thinking about, well, what I comparing myself to other people, that was the wrong thing. So, I said, "No, I'm going to be like Sean. I want to train to my ability, not in comparison to someone else." Uh, and that really taught me something as far as like again why I put myself through these things and the benefit of it by really like what the martial arts really teaches is, you know, and the fact that yeah, I had these gifts, but if I if I use those gifts as a crutch, I'm limiting what I can be.

>> Right. You're limiting your potential. >> Exactly. Yeah.

And so >> and often times it's too easy for the gifted guys >> and so they kind of slack off. >> Right. Yeah. So yeah, that that's that's and I realized that's what I was doing.

>> They also are not as comfortable with struggle. >> Absolutely. >> And being comfortable with struggle is a very important part of growth. >> Yeah.

Yeah. And yeah, it's it's it's a it's a mixed message because we start to uh admire the the freak sometimes. uh we as as men we celebrate the pugilist a lot and that's kind of a thing to where came full circle to where okay yeah I'm able to do these things but is that really me is that is that the limit of what I can be by having someone else go oh yeah you you can do this or that that's kind of a that's not really the the the the crux of it Right? >> You know what I mean?

And it's and and it's really about like yeah, there's going to be people that's going to praise >> what you can do physically, >> but is that but I realized there was a point where that was kind of retarding where where I could be mentally and what I can really become. >> You also have a responsibility to those gifts. >> Yeah. >> Right.

Because if you are gifted athletically, you have a responsibility of achieving the full potential because you've been given this thing by genetics, by life, by God, this thing where you are faster, you move quicker, you have more explosive power. >> But are you going to harness that gift and allow it to reach its full potential? And when you do that, then you get a Mike Tyson. When you do that, then you get a Michael Jordan.

You do that, then you get an elite of the elite. you get what David Gogggins always like to call uncommon amongst uncommon men. >> Right. Right.

>> And that's that's the real hard thing to do because so many of these like really gifted guys in the gym, they always kind of peter off and disappear and and when they're in a fight where they fight another gifted guy that maybe trained a little harder than them, maybe he's got a little bit more experience, they realize like, man, I don't want to struggle like that. I don't I don't like that. I don't like that feeling. I like beating up guys in the gym that are below me.

>> Yeah. And then you you you got to deal with that person in the mirror. >> Yeah. >> And that's not easy.

It's hard for guys when they they're the hammer their whole life and then one day they're the nail. >> Yeah. >> And you see guys that are like really elite that are dominating and then one day they get [... ] up and then you never see him again >> often times. But then you'll see the guy who like gets [... ] up a bunch of times and keeps showing up and keeps showing up and keeps learning and then you realize like, oh, this guy is now elite.

>> Yeah. And those are the true heroes to me, >> right? you know, and you know, there's people I don't want, you know, sometimes you get get uh in trouble pointing out people like like I don't want to say somebody like Izzy or whatever, but but like you see the the the people who are used to having that ability over other people and when it gets hard. >> Right.

>> Right. And then it's like um even sometimes there's a there's a talk about even Tyson and and you know as just people who are just um spectators when you go oh man there's guy this guy so gifted now uh some of the knock has been that when it became hard you hadn't seen him dig down and overcome >> right >> that thing. >> Right. Right.

you know, cuz a lot of times when it got hard, it was like he just, you know, kind of tapped out. >> Yeah.

>> And so that's something that, >> you know, not to disparage him, but I just as people are looking at life, we we look at, you know, we we look at those things and we can take a lot of meaning from that and and apply that and say, "Oh, wow." is I mean that's on him to to say oh was that the case or or is it a is something that um >> I don't know >> with I think with Mike it's a very special case because I think he had the elite coaching in the beginning with customado and and training and then when Cus died >> he was kind of left with all this amazing ability that he had developed when he was young but not with the elite coaching like so If Mike had left when Customado died, if he had then went to Emanuel Stewart or if the you know what I'm saying, if he had then went to an elite boxing coach and had someone analyze his sty and someone he really respected >> respected.

Yes, absolutely.

>> That he could still maintain that same level of discipline when he was the 21-year-old dominating the world. >> Oh my god. But he has so much pressure on him because you know I had to play him so I had to study everything he did >> and it's interesting because >> oh my god like I always viewed him as somebody who was always looking for a father figure. >> Yes.

>> And I would study him and you know with Customado he would dress like Customado. He's a a young black guy from Brooklyn with suspenders, >> right? >> You know, in a in a caveat, like, you know. Yeah.

>> And then when Custom was gone, >> he was around Kevin Rooney and Kevin Rooney had this really fast way of talking >> and it seemed like he adapted that when he was with uh with um uh uh >> No, no. Um uh shoot, why why am I blanking? the the other train the other manager >> um >> Jim Jacobs. >> Jim Jacobs, you know, Jim Jacobs was married.

He had and he I think marriage became important to him at that point because he was really under the you know the umbrella of Jim Jacobs. And then when he was with >> Robin Given with a with um uh Don King. >> Oh yeah. >> The nword is the every third word out of his mouth.

Very much like Don King. He goes to prison. >> He's got two father figures on him. Ma seat tongue and and he's got uh you know Arthur Ash on another shoulder and I and and I would just notice that like even speech patterns would change you know and I I looked at him as wow here's a a guy that I felt like I identified with a great deal because coming from the same kind of kind of place uh but yeah it's it's interesting cuz I I think a lot of people don't know how much struggle he had to deal with Because the people think that Kevin Rooney was kind of a savior in that situation when he wasn't.

Kevin Rooney, explain to me directly that he he says, "If you ever see Mike, please um apologize for me cuz when I mean when Mike was was married to Robin Given, he didn't want to do this interview." And then turn around Kevin Rooney did the interview and Kevin Rooney is like I I really messed up when I did that. And Kevin Rooney even told me that when at the Spinx fight alone Kevin made like over a million dollars. He left he left that casino owing Mike had to bail bail him out like so many times. And so people thought, "Oh, Kevin Rooney is in." No, Mike was I mean, he had so much pressure on him.

And I think with um with with uh Don King trying to hire Mike's cohorts to to help out, is he going to hang out with him anyway to try to just do that? He had so much This dude has so much pressure on him. It's it's unbelievable. >> And Don King definitely took advantage of that.

>> Yeah. Uh yeah, I I I believe so. Yeah. You know, because I I knew Don from because I was always in the fight camps with with um Frankie Laos.

In fact, that's how I got to first meet Mike Tyson when Mike was in prison. Frankie put Mike and I on the phone together. And so I would, you know, do my little uh kind of interviewing of Mike while he was while he was in prison. Uh because I was going to do I was going to be playing him.

So, I wanted the whole story, >> right? >> And, you know, and I went to Catskills on my own and knocked on that door and and spent time with the people he grew up with in that that house. >> Oh, wow. >> You know, so I learned a lot.

There's a lot that, you know, the public doesn't know. Uh, and that I think he was concerned about, you know, coming out and, you know, it didn't. And, uh, and so it it it was it was really interesting. And I just got I got I was front and center on how much pressure this guy had to deal with.

He had to kind of develop with the whole world looking over his shoulder. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was >> and he was 20, >> which is crazy.

Youngest ever heavyweight champion in the world. He's >> went from being a 13-year-old kid with no family to being adopted by this guy who's not just training him, but also hypnotizing him. And then he's got Jim Jacobs who exposes him to this library of all the greatest fighters of all time. He's watching video footage of it.

>> Bill Kaitton. Yeah. Bill Kaitton and Jim. Yeah.

>> It's an extraordinary story because it's like unlike anyone else's. Like the environment that he was exposed to and the way it produced this guy who was unlike any heavyweight before. >> I mean in his prime. I always point to the Marvis Frasier fight.

always tell people you want to see like the scariest [... ] that ever stepped into the ring. Mike Tyson versus Marvis Frasier. He was just undeniable. Just undeniable.

>> But that pressure, the kind of pressure that no one could explain what that's like. There's no internet back then. So there's not as many f famous people. >> So like who's gonna who's he going to relate to?

Who's who's going to tell him what this is like? Who's there's no one like him. You had Muhammad Ali. He had a few other guys that could maybe tell him what it was like, >> but for the most part, he's not he's got no road map.

And he's out there in this world of superstardom. We could do whatever the [... ] he wants. Everywhere he goes, people are screaming and cheering and and he's knocking everybody out in the first round. >> Yeah.

Yeah. The pressure on that, man. And then have to fight Holyfield, >> right? a guy who was really kind of more like a big brother to him throughout his life, you know, his professional life because, you know, Holyfield was his crew, he was a cruiserweight, you know, and Holyfield was a type of guy, how you doing, Mike?

You check on him and all that type of stuff. Then he has to fight this guy and there was deep down like he's got to fight this guy who's this he's got this reputation as a holy man and he's all this type of stuff. And then I remember being being at that fight and I remember the press conference and Mike was like really manufacturing this hatred that I was like that's not real. Like he's trying to dig down to really get this edge to really hate Holyfield.

And I was like that's a that's a I thought that was a mistake. But um and I don't think psychologically he was in his his game, >> right? Holyfield had an edge on it. Yeah.

>> I think it was also the fact the Holy Man thing was a big deal. Like Holyfield had this incredible belief in God and he really believed that, you know, God was looking out for him and he was going to go in there and >> Yeah. And then >> couldn't be deterred. >> Dude, the third round I mean look I studied all this stuff on Mike Tyson.

Third round of that first fight got chills because think about it. He heard something that he never heard his entire career. >> Everybody started chanting for the other guy. >> Right.

>> Holy field. Holy field. And I swear to you, I saw just the air come out of this guy. >> Yeah.

>> And it was like I've done all of this and they're chanting for this man and how gracious he was. Um how Tyson was at the end. I felt like that's not a a new thought. You kind of had that opinion of him going into this.

>> Well, Holyfield had been through the wars, right? He had those wars with Riddic Bow. He had the first war with Dwight Muhammad Kawi. Remember that fight at Cruiserweight?

Oh my god. Go back and watch that fight. That fight. He had the war with Bert Cooper.

>> He had wars. >> And Holyfield was unflapable. He's like >> he's like I don't know why Mike saying this about me, but it's just it's like he's just like >> he's just >> he never got angry. >> Yeah.

Yeah. It's like how do you It's hard to maintain like anger for that dude. Like he's just like okay. >> Well, that's also terrifying too cuz you know you can't get in there.

You're trying to get in that head and it's like there's you're not getting in there. God's in there. >> Yeah. And then it's like if you look at it, you know, >> Mike Tyson was committing to every first blow.

Yep. >> Holyfield is a counter fighter. >> Fake him. Let him throw that counter and you got him.

>> Yeah. >> And I was like, I think normally Mike knows this. Holyfield's center of gravity so different. He's thin-legged, big up top.

Mike should be able to push him easily. Easily. I didn't see the things that I normally saw from Mike Tyson in that fight, which made me feel like this is a psychological component. >> It's a psychological component, but it's also a training component because again, he wasn't with an elite trainer at that time.

It wasn't it wasn't the same as him being trained by Costamano. It wasn't the same. >> Yeah. >> He didn't have the bobbing and weaving style that he used to have.

>> Do you remember when he caught Holyfield with the body shot and the uppercut? >> Yeah. and just like basically you almost said you saw finish him >> but he just chilled. >> Do you remember that moment?

>> I don't specifically. >> Yeah, there's a moment there's a moment like that that he heard him >> and Holyfield looked like it's like >> Yeah, but Holyfield would rebound. I mean the real bow fights >> but you look at Tyson look at almost everything he he's done. I thought I was about to see the beginning of the end.

And I'm like, what the what the I remember being there going, why isn't he jumping on him, >> you know? Hey, you know, maybe I'm wrong or whatever. But I swear I saw that moment. >> And I remember going, what's going on?

Why is he not jumping on him? >> I mean, it's interesting. It's interesting. >> Psychology plays a big role in how how you feel about the opponent.

And the opponent essentially holds up a mirror and allows you to look at yourself. Yeah. >> And when he's comparing himself to this holy man, he probably didn't like it. >> I Joe, you you know I think that's the way I thought about it.

And of course, who am I to do? But this is it's my opinion. >> Those dudes with that kind of character like Holyfield had at the time. Those are scary guys >> because like they can't be broken mentally, >> right?

Right. >> They're always g and if if you try to break them physically and he rebounds like oh god. Mhm. >> How how much do I have left in the tank?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> How many more of these shots can I take?

>> Yeah. Like now it's different if somebody like taunted you. >> Mhm. >> Now you can, you know, manufacture like, you know, but when the guy is just like, okay, I'm just doing my thing.

>> But you you you start going, "Oh, is it me? Is it?" Because you don't then, you know, it's like >> that's a that's when you have fedors, >> right? >> Somebody like that. It's just like >> like this.

It's like you you just you drown yourself >> stoic >> cuz I can't I can't derive nothing from him. It's like >> Oh, he was the best at it. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Fedor was the best at it. Fedor would be in the middle of the most chaotic war and it looked like he was just sipping a cup of coffee. >> Was crazy. There was no one like that guy.

He's one of the most unique characters in I think we were robbed of one of the greatest heavyweight matchups of all time when they never figured out how to put Kane Velasquez versus Fedor when they were both in their primes. >> Man, Kane Velasquez is the scariest person I've ever seen as far as I'm concerned. Like if there was one guy that like cuz I I pride myself I get in the ring with anybody. That guy, man.

>> He never got tired, >> man. He's like cardio. He had cardio for a heavyweight that was like a marathon runner. It didn't make any sense.

He was a 240lb guy who never got tired. >> Yeah. Didn't I think >> perfect technique? >> Yeah.

And I think the the the fights with um um >> Junior dos Santos. >> I feel like they ruined each other. >> Yes. >> I feel like they ruined each other.

>> Well, I think certainly ruined Junior, especially the second fight. The first fight Junior caught. The first fight, Kane should have never took that fight. Kane had to take that fight because it was on Fox.

It was a big deal. It was the main event of the Fox, the first Fox card. And Kane blew his knee out. >> So, if you look at that fight, Kane's wearing a knee brace.

His knee was [... ] up. Like, his meniscus was torn. He was all [... ] up. He couldn't anchor on it.

He couldn't really post on it. And then, uh, he couldn't get out of the way. And Junior caught him with a big right hand. Cracked him, dropped him, stopped him.

>> And then he comes back. Here it is. Here's Tyson versus Holyfield. Boom.

>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yep. >> Yeah. But I'm But Holyfield's still there. >> He's still there.

>> If ever he has a chance, he has a chance right now. Vander's hurt. >> That right hand. >> You heard what he said, right?

>> But that took some wind out of Evander right away. >> Biggest round for Mike yet. >> But the thing about Evander is Evander was always there. He had been through these kind of fights before.

But I don't know where I am, but I was there. >> And something about seeing that, >> I felt like, oh, he's about to take him out. >> But I think because Evander rebounded and Evander had a history of rebounding >> Oh, sure. of wars.

>> Absolutely. It still doesn't change the fact that there was I feel like there was an opportunity and he that was a very unty-like >> situation. I just don't think Tyson was Tyson anymore by this time. I mean, I think he was a one-punch guy by this time.

He wasn't cutting those crazy angles where he would slide off to the side and rip the body and go. He was standing right in front of guys. >> Yeah. >> He lost a lot of what made him special, which was the speed of combinations and the movement.

>> The movement is primarily because he couldn't he couldn't have never gotten that far if he didn't do that. >> Show that Marvis Frasier fight. >> Show that Marvis Frasier fight. Tyson versus Marvis Frasier is my favorite favorite Tyson performance >> because Marvis Frasier looked like he was going to a funeral at the beginning of the fight.

Look at him. Look at him. He I mean you feel the energy from his face. >> And he didn't play the covenant right after this with the the grizzly bear just mauling the hell out.

>> It's the same thing. >> Well, here it is. He just all over Marvis like from the beginning. >> This was on ABC Wide World of Sports.

I remember watching this at home. But look at the bobbing and the weaving. It's not just right in front of him. It's angles.

Like right here. Boom. >> Oh man. >> That was when he was the champ.

I mean, he wasn't the champ yet, but he was the champ. He was about to fight Trevor Bourbick, but everybody was like, "Oh my god, he's real." >> Yeah. Here's a here's a thing that sparked some controversy. Mike Tyson versus Muhammad Ali.

It depends on which Tyson and which Muhammad Ali. >> Well, it was the best of both. You know, of course, you got >> the best Muhammad Ali wasn't Muhammad Ali. I think it was Cash's Clay.

I think the best was when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams. To me, I I always tell people like, you want to know Ali before they took his title away, before they put him on the shelf for three years because he wouldn't fight in Vietnam. Watch Cleveland big cat Williams cuz Cleveland was a big scary power puncher and Muhammad Ali was just dancing around him, dancing around. >> But was he bigger than Muhammad Ali though?

See, that's what that that's the thing about Muhammad Ali. People don't realize he was like the biggest guy in the ring. You know, he was only four pounds different than than Foreman. >> People don't realize because he moves around the way he moves >> back then, but in the Cleveland big cat Williams days, he was lighter.

He was only Yeah. He was only like 215 or 220. >> And and Cleveland Williams was what? >> He's big.

Look at the size of Cleveland. Look at his back. Look at the back on Cleveland. >> And look at the legs, though.

>> Yeah. But he was a power puncher, man. You watch some of Look at his back. Cleveland was a scary dude, man.

>> Yeah, he might be lean. He might be lean, but Muhammad Ali is a big dude. >> Oh, he's definitely a big guy. >> He's I think Muhammad is bigger than that guy.

>> Maybe. But look at the movement, man. My >> abs. Absolutely.

>> So, this movement was absent when he came back three years later. He never fought like this again. And when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, Cleveland just did not know where he was. >> He was 212.

Williams was 210 at weigh in. >> Oh, okay. Well, dudes were smaller back then. Like, think about Rocky Marciano.

He was only 185. >> But, but the thing is that people don't realize because he's fighting like a lighter guy. You got a bigger guy >> hitting guys, especially he, you know, he, you know, trick people to coming in and that magnifies everything. So, >> sort of, but they're basically the same size.

But 212 is fairly small. This is smaller than Mike was when Mike was in his prime. And, you know, Mike was only like 215, 220, >> 22. Yeah.

221. Yeah. >> So that's why it's interesting because like Mike moved his head and the people who did the best against Muhammad Ali was with Joe Frasier and and Ken Norton who moved their heads. >> Yes.

But again these are the guys after this three-year break. This three-ear break Muhammad Ali didn't train. He didn't train at all for three years. When you watch when he comes back after that like come on son.

The speed >> and Cleveland's like what the [... ] is going on? >> But speed and a bigger guy. >> That's that's the thing. That's the the thing that cuz like you know you you thought when we were going in this clip that he was bigger than Muhammad Ali.

>> I did. >> Yeah. So, but the thing is like people don't realize how big Muhammad Ali actually was cuz George Foreman, you know, was a monster. >> Look at these combinations.

>> And they were his his legs are bigger than George Foreman's and we know where the power is, right? >> Well, George Foreman, what did he weigh when they fought? >> 218 and I think Muhammad Ali was 214. They were like right.

So the actual fight day, who know who was heavier, >> right? >> You know, but I'm just saying it's interesting because you got a you got a guy the same size as Foreman moving faster. >> Yeah, but he didn't in that fight. In that fight, he mostly laid on the ropes, remember?

I mean, >> he did the rope a dope, but I'm seeing that he's still a big >> 220 212 to 220. Pretty close. >> Yeah, I've seen it different. I've seen that.

He wasn't the same guy. If you f if if George Foreman of that time fought Cleveland, the the Muhammad Ali that fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams is a completely different fight. Foreman is getting pieced up. Foreman is getting pieced up from the outside >> and Ali was just picking him apart and moving and Foreman swinging at air.

>> He was like nobody else before him, man. It was he was so different. He was so different. But those three years when he had to take three year and he didn't train at all and then he came back and now he's 30 and you know no strength and conditioning for three years, no running, no boxing.

His body looked different. >> Yeah. >> Who did he fight when he came back? He fought uh >> Lyall.

>> No, that that white dude that horrible brain damage towards Cobb. >> Jerry Cooney. >> Oh, Jerry. >> No, no, no.

Jerry Quarry. Jerry. Okay. >> Yeah.

When you fought Jerry Quarry. See if you find that fight. Now, why? Look at his body.

When you see it, you see his body smooth. >> His footwork doesn't look the same. His timing is off. >> He had a ton of ring rust.

He just didn't What's that, Jimmy? >> He just didn't look the same. He didn't look the same. And I think that that three years, they [... ] him, man.

>> Yeah, >> they [... ] him. They [... ] him. And I mean, look, it made him a cultural hero because he wasn't willing to fight in Vietnam. And you know, he famously like look at his body.

It's different, man. He's just not the same guy anymore. He's not moving as fast. >> And Jerry Quarry was just a really tough guy who was, you know, famous for being able to take a beating.

>> Yeah. >> Like >> Ali didn't have the endurance anymore. Like look at him. He's just not the same guy anymore, man.

>> Yeah. >> It was He was a shadow of what he was before. He still went on to win the title. He still went on.

I always wonder what he would have been if those three years were not stolen from him in his peak in his prime. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That would that would have been something else. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know I I this one interesting thing another thing interesting thing about Ali is like try to find him throwing a body shot, >> right?

Not a lot of those. >> No, he almost never did. >> Maybe a jab or two to the body. like he he like >> this true.

>> It'd be interesting to count up all the body shots throughout his whole career and you you you might you might get 10. >> It's true. >> Yeah, it's interesting. >> Yeah, it is.

>> That's why I mean that's why when we you know people talk about the greatest boxer, >> of course he's the one of the greatest human beings, >> greatest Americans ever, right? like just h man the stuff he's he put it talk about putting himself out there for you know as far as a servant yes of the world there's nobody I don't know anybody who compares to him >> also the personality when he would go on talk shows and and he he was just so fun >> how sharp was he >> oh so sharp >> all those things were memorized >> one of one of my favorite ones was Howard Kosell said you're very truckulent champ and he goes whatever truckulent means if it's good I'm Oh yeah. Oh yeah. >> I mean, he was just a different human being.

>> He was not scared of anything, man. There's some stuff that some interviews that he's being real controversial. Like he would he would actually talk [... ] to people and talk about whooping their ass. You know, just recently I've seen some stuff that I was like, "Wow, I hadn't seen this one." >> But >> Oh, yeah.

If anybody disrespected him, if anybody like if they wouldn't call him Muhammad Ali, if they were calling him cashless clay, he would [... ] them up. What's my name? Pop. What's my name?

Pop. >> Yeah. >> He was a special person and and and just culturally like one of the most significant figures ever in the history of America >> because at a time where the world was torn like why the [... ] are we in Vietnam? >> And this one guy says I'm not doing this.

>> And then they're like okay we're going to strip your title away from you. And then for 3 years >> he was you know persecuted and the whole world was watching and they eventually let him fight again. >> Yeah. >> But by then we had realized that Vietnam was not a just war.

And this guy they had taken three years of his life away from him because he wasn't willing to participate. >> Yeah man. What a hero man. >> A real hero.

A real hero and a like again a cultural icon. Like a just a different kind of human being that inspired so many people outside of fighting. Mhm. >> My parents were hippies and my parents wanted to watch the Leon Spinx rematch when he fought Leon Spinx.

Like everybody was excited sitting around. I'm like I I remember being a little kid going, I can't believe they want to watch this fight. This is so weird to me. Like they want to watch a fight cuz that's who Muhammad Ali was.

He was just different. He meant something to America >> in a way that no other fighter before or since has. >> Yeah, man. There's so many man just even for equal rights and just for everything.

>> Yeah. So so much that >> I really can't think of many people that's been more significant. >> No. And many people think >> many people think about like what do you stand for?

Like what do you I mean this guy he could have easily just taken some stupid [... ] desk job with the army or something and you know >> easily. Yeah. I mean, I I did a movie last year in Louisville, Kentucky, and while I was there, I went and visited Muhammad Ali's grave site, and dude, man, I I didn't expect I just, let me see it. And dude, I couldn't talk for two hours afterwards.

I just sat in my car just just all just got overwhelmed just to think what this man really meant. >> Yeah. >> It was just like it it it jacked me up. I didn't I didn't expect that.

>> Yeah. I can't think of another fighter that meant more like in terms of like a cultural icon. >> Can't think of another one. >> Yeah.

And put his life on the line and just was so, you know, >> and as a a cautionary tale to fighters, too, about the end >> about fighting too long. Look, no one ever forgave Larry Holmes for beating him up. Larry Holmes, one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, never got his just due, right? >> Because people never forgave him for beating up Ali.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah.

>> Which is crazy. >> Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's not fair. Didn't make any sense.

I mean, Muhammad Ali was trying to beat him up, >> but you know, everybody knew even though Ali was fighting, everybody knew it was over. He wasn't the Muhammad Muhammad Ali of old. >> Yeah. And then he he wanted to call an end to the fight, man.

Like >> Holmes was like, "Why am I doing this, you know?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That was sad. Yeah.

And and he wasn't Yeah. Holmes was never that much of a likable presence, and it's hard to come behind Muhammad Ali, >> right? He was never that kind of a personality. >> Yeah.

Yeah, >> but damn, did he have a jab. >> That's the best jab around. >> Larry, even when he fought Tyson, when he was popping him with that jab and it made you wonder, God, I wonder what Larry would have done in his prime. This would have been an exciting fight to see in his prime.

>> No, the two of them. >> Yeah. I still don't think he would have been able to beat Prime Tyson. >> No, >> but it was wild to see.

>> Tyson made his bones on fighting bigger guys and making them miss and pay for it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So he he he load up on, you know, on that on his legs.

And a lot of times when he's landing, he's in the air. >> Yep. >> He's in the air, man. >> It was the speed, too.

Middleweight speed in a heavyweight body. >> He's the fastest. Well, he was one of the fastest heavyweights, I think. Uh >> who?

There's one guy I forget. >> Usyk's pretty damn fast. >> Oh, Usyk's nice. >> Yeah.

>> Oh, man. What a talk about a person. He's funny. That's a funny dude, man.

>> Oh, he's a character. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And want to talk about technique, too.

And another guy was trained by the same guy as Lomachenko. Lachenko's father trained Usyk. >> Oh, cool. >> Which is also why he's like a heavyweight Usyk.

Heavyweight Lachenko. >> He's got that footwork and movement and that Russian style that, you know, Ukrainian Russian style. It's like those guys, they figured out movement and footwork. Bivval has it, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, you know, like we're very fortunate that we can see all of these incredible human beings that have, you know, risked their life and their health and put it on the line so we could see true lessons about character and technique.

>> Yeah. I just wish uh heavyweights would concentrate on technique a little bit more, >> right? >> I mean, we're >> Well, maybe Usyk's changing people's perspective on that. Maybe they're realizing like, wow, you can't just one two everybody.

>> Yeah. I think what what happened there's another thing in this country is like people I think they're not following boxing. They're not getting into boxing. A lot of these guys going for the money, you know, they'll try to play play football or whatever.

>> Well, since Deontay, we haven't really had a heavyweight boxing champion in America. Deonte was our last heavyweight boxing champion. >> Yeah. And talk about technique is Yeah.

>> Not the best, >> but you know, he had what Teddy Atlas likes to call the eraser, >> right? Yeah, true. >> You can make all the mistakes of the world. He had that one eraser.

Blam. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Deontay was the craziest knockout puncher that's ever existed.

>> Yeah. >> It was nuts. He just He hit you moving backwards, flatlining. >> Yeah.

Way like 212. >> Cra 209 when he fought uh Tyson Fury the first time. 209. >> Yeah.

I went I I He and I went shooting before. Like we we've done some tactical stuff together. Yeah. Um >> really nice guy.

Yeah, >> I love talking to him on the podcast. >> Oh, yeah. He's he's he's great. That's I don't know.

I don't know. Like, just work on his technique, man. It's like, geez, let I don't get it. >> Yeah.

I don't know, man. Too late. >> It's what you do for a living. Like, >> I think he relied on that gift for so long.

>> Cuz I mean, look at the gift though. I mean, at one point in time, he was like 39 knockouts >> out of 40 fights. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but it's like he's >> I know nuts.

But it didn't matter when it landed. >> When it landed, you couldn't do [... ] about all that sloppiness. >> I still I still wouldn't mind seeing AJ versus him. >> I still wouldn't mind that either.

>> That'd be interesting. >> I think after the car accident, AJ might be done, though, cuz he was, >> you know, he was knocked unconscious in that car accident. I heard really bad. I heard he was out for like 10 minutes.

>> Really? >> Yeah. And his two friends died, you know. I mean, and after all his fights and you know, you know, that is the last thing he needed is some extracurricular brain damage like that.

>> True. True. >> And then also losing his two great friends like that. It's got to be, >> you know, that's just [... ] crazy.

>> Yeah. That's that's a sad thing. But I think >> Yeah. If he's my brother or my cousin, I'd be like, you got to go through this.

You can't let you know. You gota >> for their sake, >> you know that what would your friends want you to do? >> Wow. >> You know, >> we'll see.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I hope the best because look again, he's another one of >> our our warriors, man. He puts his body and, you know, life on the line.

>> Yeah. >> For us, man. It's like that that's >> that's our modern day gladiator, you know. >> I know.

There's nothing like a fight. It's different than any kind any kind of sporting event. It's very different. And the the losses are way different.

They're way harder to deal with >> and the victories are way greater. >> Yeah. You know, one of my best friends being Frankie, man. Like, so I got a front seat to all of that.

You know, Frankie knocked out Roy Jones back in the amateurs and and you know, I wanted to see him get his due. I mean, he's he was WBA super middleweight champ for five years straight. But I, you know, was a front seat to the boxing life and the fighting life. And >> it's a hard world.

>> Yeah, it is. It is. It is. Hard world in the end is not pretty and there's no one there for you in the end.

A lot I was watching this uh piece on Bobby Chicone who was a great fighter in the 80s and oh my god in the end it was horrible. It's just horrible watching >> just the deterioration and the brain damage and no one there for you and >> that's a lot of guys. >> Yeah. Yeah.

And if I mean your brain you don't it doesn't regenerate, you know, then >> No, it only gets worse. >> Yeah. And if you're if you're experiencing brain damage now, I mean, without treatment, there's some treatments now um that they're they're able to use to help regenerate some neural tissue and but there's a certain amount you never come back from. >> Yeah.

Yeah. I know my my son one of my one of my sons is I mean he's he's been going through I forot what do they call it? This is like stimulation thing. >> Mhm.

>> And um >> the magnetic stuff. >> Yeah. It's um man I forget but he's actually he's actually helped him out a great deal. I mean he he he kind of went a kind of a interesting route like kind of experimented with some stuff before but now he's kind of come back he's turned him around.

Uh >> what happened to him? Yeah, he's kind of was like uh you getting high doing kind of went that route for a minute, >> but it's uh but he's gotten I've just actually seen things turn around >> with this I don't know why I can't remember but it's this brain stimulation thing and it kind of rewires you >> know >> um you know I think I heard you talk about the uh >> you know um NE and those type of things you Yeah. So yeah, there's there's things that are going >> there are things that can help, but you got to be very vigilant about it. >> Yeah.

Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So I'm I'm I've been connected to like a lot of the uh uh anti-aging type of stuff, you know.

Yeah. It's fascinating. A good friend of mine is Bob G. I don't know if you know who Bob Dr.

Bob Goldman is. >> No. >> Yeah. You should have him on your show.

He's he's he's an interesting guy. He he runs A4M. I don't know if you ever heard it's this conglomerate of doctors all all around the world that's dedicated to fixing causes of diseases not just >> chasing around the you know the uh >> symptoms and stuff and so it's like very much in in the face of the pharmaceutical companies they are really dedicated to like taking care of the things from the the source >> okay >> and it's been going on for a while man it's like They have like about six of these things a year. One of the biggest one is in Vegas, but like you look it up.

A4M. >> Okay. >> See Sal Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, they he's been, you know, dealing with them. They I've actually tried to I've hooked Nick Diaz up with him >> to help him >> because uh you know, they're on the for forefront of the new medicine type stuff.

So yeah, he's it's a it's an interesting thing. A4M they have a lot lot of doctors who will be giving lectures on all the most innovative stuff and they have all the newest equipment that's just like a just the biggest um kind of uh I don't know like rooms huge rooms full of all the most >> collaborating. Yeah. >> It's a good time to be an older person.

There's a lot of science behind that. >> They have the belief that you should be in your, you know, live to 100 but healthily. >> Yeah. >> They really believe that.

And I, you know, >> if it's ever been possible, now is the time. Oh, yeah. I think so, too. >> Yeah.

You should My my doctor, Dr. Alivasos, my doctor's 63. He looks like a freaking superhero. >> That's awesome.

>> Yeah. >> 63 year old guys when we were kids were basically dead. >> Yeah. They were just old men, frail, feeble.

>> Yeah, it's interesting, man. It's like and and yeah, we're getting older, but knock wood, man. I'm I've been very fortunate. I've been very lucky.

>> Yeah, me too. It's this is a good time to be an older person. >> Yeah, man. You look good, man.

>> Thank you. You, too. >> Yeah. Yeah.

We're You think I'm a little older than you, though. >> How old are you? >> Yeah. >> I'm 58.

>> Oh, yeah. I'm a little older than you. >> Okay. >> Yeah.

>> Well, you look great. Well, thank you. >> You look great then if you're older than me. I feel I feel good.

Yeah. I feel very good. >> It's a really Well, there's so much information now on how to maintain your body and how to maintain your health. >> Yeah.

>> You're older. >> Yep. Yep. You know, >> well, hey, brother.

It's been great. I'm glad we got together. >> Me, too. Me, too, man.

Again, man, I got I got to tell you, man, how proud I am Joe from the gym is doing his thing, man. In a in a big way, man. >> I feel the same about you. Thank you.

>> Well, thank you, man. >> This is a lot of fun. >> Yeah, man. Thanks for having me.

>> We'll do it again sometime. >> Yeah, we got to. >> All right. For sure.

Definitely. All right. Bye, everybody.