JRE #2515 — Joe Rogan × Chase Hughes

It could have been all the above, but um all my fears of the weather getting in the way of the fights were they were null. It didn't mean anything. And then there was this long sort of um ceremonial thing where they had jets fly over and you know they played music and all this different stuff. So by the time we got to the actual fights, dark out, perfect, the weather was perfect. So that that wasn't an issue at all. And it was just the magnitude of the event. I know people saw it on television and it looked insane. Yeah. But the magnitude of the event being there live. So there's the event that's taking place on the lawn of the White House and that has 4,000 plus people. The main event. Yes. The So the the the actual UFC. So there's there's uh a bunch of military guys that are standing up in the back. There's like a thousand of those and there's 3,000 plus that are seated. All these people are seated. But then behind that, not that far, like a 100 yards, 200 yards, whatever it is. I guess it's more than that, maybe 300 yards. There's the ellipse. The ellipse has 85,000 people who got in for free. Yeah. It's It's like in the whole White House ecosphere, whatever it is. Wow. Yeah. So this area they have giant screen set up and they have you know huge speakers and sound and so 85,000 fans are watching the fights live on the screens and they can see the lights of the [__] this claw dome in the distance and they can see the White House in the distance where the fights are taking place but they're watching it on massive screens with commentary and it was insane and you could hear them roar so you hear the crowd from here and then you hear 85,000 PEOPLE IN THIS [__] you could hear it in the distance. It was insane. It was insane. Just the magnitude of it Unlike anything else we've ever done beyond I I mean I'm a hyperbolic individual and I'm always like this is the greatest. This is awesome. Like that was the wildest experience that I've ever had in my 20 whatever years of calling combat sports. There's nothing even close. Nothing even close. It was the greatest night of fights of all time. And it was the only night in the history of the sport where every single fight ended by knockout. Did they all? Every single one. Seven fights. Seven fights. Every one of them ended by knockout. Wow. Which never happened. Which is unprecedented. Unprecedented. It was like the perfect experience for anybody that had never watched the UFC before to see it that way at the White House like that.

I mean, it was it was nuts. A huge experience for the fans that got to be there in the ellipse. And I mean, the I saw videos these guys, they were having so much fun. It's like everyone's in there for free. You don't have to pay for the tickets. There's 85,000 people out there. They're all screaming and cheering and the drinks are flowing and it was wild. I mean, just absolutely wild. What a 250th. Yeah. For Wow. And and it's a sport that was like banned just what 15 20 years ago or something. 20 plus years ago. So when the UFC So when I first started working for the UFC was in 1997 and back then you had to watch it on Direct TV. I had Direct TV just because that was the only way to watch the UFC. That's why I didn't have cable and then um Zufa purchased it. So the Fertitta brothers and Dana White, they they started running it in 2001 and that's when I came aboard again. So I had quit in '98. I worked from 97 to 98 and then I quit and then they brought me back in 2001. And when that was going on, it was banned from cable and um they slowly started working it back. They got it on Fox Sportsnet, which was the first time I ever commentated for the UFC. That was UFC 37 and a half, a very special show that they put on for Fox Sports Net, try to introduce people to the sport. And so that was the first time it was on like cable again. And then they started getting pay-per-view buys and it started growing and gathering steam. But even back then, like it was like you were doing porn or something or snuff films or you you were doing something that was damaging for your career, you know, and people would like look at you like, why you're working for a cage fighting organization. Why would you do that? Cut to 25 years later, it's on the lawn of the White House and it is one of the most watched sporting events in the history of the world. Yeah. I don't know what the total overall views are as of now, but I know that it was like well over a I think it was 150 million just by just by Monday. Unbelievable. Just by Monday. So that's like the night of and then people that watched the replay that weren't there when the fight took place because they heard about it. But now between now and between then and now, now we're dealing with Tuesday, like it's probably another 50 or 60 million people have watched it. I bought Paramount Plus just to just to watch it on YouTube. I'm sure I don't know, 13 bucks or something that it was. But man, what a hell of an event. Yeah, it was an amazing event. I I wish I would have stayed up longer, but I watched the first few fights. It was fantastic. The main event was the greatest fight of all time. It literally was the greatest fight of all time because the guy that won it, Justin Gatei, was in many books a six to1 favorite or six to1 underdog rather, which is crazy odds for a guy that was a interim lightweight champion. Fought the best of the best. One of the best to ever do it. BMF champion.

I mean, just super durable, real dangerous guy. And that's how good Ilia Taporia is. That's how good Ilia is. Ilia Taporia in many people's eyes is the most skilled of the new generation and the new generation is the most skilled of all time and Ilia was like the top of the mountain and most people thought that he was going to be too much and he was too much for a while and he almost took Justin out in the second round and then Justin rallied and then Ilia it looked like he got really damaged in either the first or the second round and he was having real trouble seeing out of one of his guys. And then Justin started landing bombs in the third round. Ilia had slowed down quite a bit. It looked like he had really tried to finish Justin in the second. And sometimes when you try to finish a guy, you just hit the gas way too much and you can't recover in between rounds. And Justin recovered and Justin started battering Ilia in the third and fourth. And by the end of the fourth round, Ilia quit on his stool. He couldn't see out of either eye. Uh he he had got kned into the bo to the body real bad when he was on the ground. Like you Justin like literally Justin had him down with his two hands and just smashed a knee into his rib cage and you could see him go like that and that was the end of the round and then he had to retire on his stool and mean like you think he broke a rib. That probably could have happened but I think maybe more significantly was the eye damage. Both of his eyes were swollen shut. His nose was [__] up. He had he taken so many punches to the face and it looked like perhaps orbital damage like maybe he had a fractured orbital because his his whole thing had just swollen up on both sides. It was unrecognizable and you know the guy hung in there as long as he could but when you can't see you can't see and when you're you're that battered sometimes it's smart to stop and he's a very smart guy and I think you realize like there's I can't defend myself right now. I can't see this guy's smashing me. Let's call it a day. This is what it is. Let's preserve my body and my brain and rebuild and come back another day. But for Justin, it was like one of the most epic things I've ever seen in my life. For him to to win like that when everybody had counted him out. He was saying it was going to be his last fight. It was like a retirement fight. 37 years old, been in the game forever, you know, fought who's a who's who of all time greats in the sport, and this is going to be his last fight. And he's like, "What if I can win the title at the White House? What an ending to a career." And that's what everybody was saying like, "Yeah, but you're not gonna because you're fighting Neilia Tapora." He was like, "All right, we'll see." And he pulled it off. He pulled it. It was It was insane. It was epic. Absolutely epic. What do you think the what do you think the mindset is between somebody who you know you walk in as an underdog and wind up winning even though your skills may not be more proficient than the other guy. What do you think the mental differences between them like somebody who loses or wins? Well, there's a lot of factors. One of the factors is that Justin has always been incredibly durable. I mean, it might just be a genetic thing. He even joked around about it like science needs to take a look at this hard ass skin I have. He very rarely gets cut at all. and his he's like, I got these hard ass bones and hard ass skin. He was joking around like science needs to study this. Um, and it's true though. I mean, he really is insanely durable.

He's been rocked and hurt before and he's been stopped in fights before. He was knocked out in the last second of the last round by M, excuse me, Max Holloway in the BMF title, which was an insane fight. But the guy is just, he has zero quit in him. It doesn't exist. Like if you're looking for quit, you go into a room, it's empty. The quit room has no one in it. There's nothing in there. He's not going to quit. He can lose because he's a human, but he's not going to quit. And he's also been into the deep trenches before, the deep trenches of these five round chaotic, insane battles. And oddly, he thrives in those kind of battles. He's a guy he's described as the most violent man in the most violent sport. That's we've all talked about him like that for years since the moment he burst onto the scene when he fought Michael Johnson in the UFC at least. He just he's a extraordinary dude. Just a very extraordinary dude and not the most technically skilled like Ilia looked technically better than him. But it didn't matter. Justin found a way to land shots. Found a way to like persevere from the early f early rounds where he was in real trouble and just shocked the world. It was amazing. One of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life. That's cool. It was [__] amazing. Wish I was there. Oh my god. I I talked a bunch of people into going that didn't want to. Like Shane Gillis was thinking about not going. I'm like, "Bro, you got to go. It's going to be epic. It's going to be a once ever thing. Not a once in a lifetime. Once in anybody's lifetime. It's never happened before. It's probably never going to happen again." Probably not. No. But that's something you have to see and experience. And so many people are trying to make it a partisan thing. like they're mad at people for being there. Like, oh, you support Trump. Like, it's a it's a [__] fight at the White House. Doesn't mean you endorse foreign policy. Like, shut the [__] up. Just please stop. And again, it's this thing, the ego thing where people are just they just want so badly and on both sides for sure. You know, the right celebrates this as a win for masculinity and patriotism and all these different things.

Like, okay, settle down. Everybody settle down. we should all be together. And I mean, one of the things that I wanted to do when we went to the White House to try to push through psychedelics for therapy for veterans and people, you know, first responders, people struggling with PTSD is you need to take these steps to give people a path to change their mind. I think that's the title of Michael Pollen's book, and it's a great way to describe it. Change your mind. change your whole perspective. And there's no better way to change your whole perspective than a complete dissolving of your ego momentarily. Just at least for a while, just lock it all away, push it out, and then you get a chance to see what it actually is doing and the effect that it has. Yeah. When you let it back into your life. Yeah. How how much of these clothes do you want to put back on? Right. Right. I described it as like control altdelete for your brain and then when your brain reboots it as one folder and that folder is just labeled my old [__] And you have a decision to make. You go back into my old [__] You be And most people do at least a little. I do a little. But for sure you recognize that it's your old [__] instead of thinking you are who you thought you were. Yeah. And it's a lot of stuff that wasn't didn't really belong to you. Like it's like we act like decorator crabs all throughout our lives where we're just kind of grabbing these little things. And you you realize that and I think that the we just talking about this politics thing. I think separation is the number one greatest deception of all time. The the biggest problem with the biggest problem that we have and the biggest deception that we have. It's like we are separate. And the one thing that you see and you do it some of the and I mean this therapeutically. I don't mean you like you're taking mushrooms and going to going to a concert. Um when you when you do this like psych therapeutic psychedelics, the first big realization you have is like, "Oh [__] this is all me." Like we're all kind of connected. We might be one thing, but there's something here that's connecting all of us. Yeah. whatever that is, whether you want to call it consciousness or our souls are connected or something. Yeah, there's something where we're connected that we're kind of denying for some strange reason. And I think that that's one of the reasons um I think you you maybe would agree that we're in a loneliness pandemic right now. Like we have more rampant loneliness around the world than we've ever had before. And if you look at how this has evolved. [__] I didn't know it was coffee. Get in here, dog. Thanks, man. Gotcha. So, if you look Cheers, sir. Thank you, man. If you look at this loneliness and people are, you could stand in a room full of people and still feel lonely for so many people. The majority of the world right now, is in this loneliness pandemic.

So, what's really going on, and this is my opinion, feel free to toss it, but we're in a in a place that's becoming more and more performative on a daily basis, just fake, artificial, let me say what people want to hear. Let me act how people want to how I want to be perceived. Sure. And which means that if I'm even if I'm a little bit performative, no matter who it is, my best friends that put my hand put their hand on my back, say, "Chase, you're a great guy. You're a good person." But in the back of my mind, I know that I'm performing. I know for a fact that probably not even my spouse has ever seen me, right? [sighs] They can't like me. They can't love me because that's not me, And I think this hyperp world of I don't mean performance. I mean like let me act out uh this thing. I'm going to I'm going to act a certain way. And cuz let's look at if you look at our ancestor, I had to worry about like you and I were maybe eight nine years apart. But when we were in elementary school or middle school, we did some stupid [__] We had to worry about 20 people making fun of us. And now we got to worry about 20 million. And that is a that is an existential difference between those things. So we get better at hiding shame and pretending like we don't have it. And then what if now going back to separation now this is what I call the the disease of specialness of I am special which means I'm the only one here pretending and everybody else has got their [__] figured out. And then that isolates you even further and not realizing that everyone has this everyone has this little crap going on and like it the the fear that people feel of like if I just be real then I'm going to get made fun of. I'm going to get rejected. I'm going to be kicked out of the tribe. It's not real. It's not real but it can be real depending upon your circumstances. So if you are in a very enclosed ideological tribe and there's no there's no tolerance for any deviation from whatever the narrative is. You know this is a real problem with social media. This is a real problem that it wasn't like that. I mean, I know I'm like one of those old people that's like back in my day, but when I was young, you were allowed to have different opinions. Like, it was normal. I had friends that were conservative and I would make fun of them and they would make fun of me and it was normal. Like, you kept those friends because no one was telling you to get rid of those friends. There was no pressure to be a part of a group. There was no there was no silence is violence [__] There was a bunch of people that thought differently and you talked about stuff and we weren't as informed. That's a fact. We didn't know as much about how the world works. That's a fact. But now that we do, one of the things that we should all be acutely aware of with us spending so much time interacting with each other online is that a lot of the people that you're interacting with are not real and not a small number. If you are on X it, you know, look, there was an FBI analyst that he before Elon mean real. They're bots like actual not human AI bots. Okay, AI bots is a big percentage and then there's actual humans who work for organizations that push narratives. You can hire an organization to push a certain narrative. You can hire them to support you or you can hire them to attack your enemies. You can hire companies that will artificially create a movement of people that agree that this person's a bad person, that this project's a bad project, that this is a good idea, that he's a good person, that he's a good this is a good politician, whatever it is you could. So, it's you're not dealing with genuine thought. You're dealing with [__] And here's where it gets really weird. I think it's natural and I think everything is nature and I think this idea that this artificial communication that we've developed through social media is what's really [__] everybody up. I don't think that's the case.

The idea that our stupid [__] creativity and intuition and technological ingenuity, it can bypass nature, I think is horshit. It is nature. It is nature. And I think nature is creating this convergence. It's creating this very bizarre convergence of humans and artificial intelligence through a bunch of ways that are unproductive and a bunch of ways that are productive. But all of it like gathering together in a device that's like almost impossible to resist. If there was anything else that you use six hours a day or eight hour if you're a good person, if you're good with it, like a lot of kids are on seven, eight, nine hours a day. Yeah. Like if there's anything else like that, you would think that person's got a horrible addiction. But for us, we've accepted it as a normal part of society. And that whatever that interaction with it that we have, that that that that deep connection we have is only going to get deeper. And it's ultimately going to lead to some sort of hive mind. And it'll probably not be a hive human mind only. I think it will be a a human AI hive mind. And I think one of the things that's happening to us is there's this weird like movement to this is a weird movement to discredit traditional femininity and traditional masculinity. And there's this uh bizarre overceelebration of outliers of weird gender people of people that are confused with their gender. And I I think that's because if you play that out, this is a new thing. Again, I'm an old man, but when I was a young guy that would did not there was crossdressers, there was guys that got off on wearing women's clothes. There was there was there was always stuff like that. There's always been people with gender dysphoria, but there was never like this. And this is also coming at a time where microplastics are disrupting our endocrine systems big time. Big time. So testosterone levels are dropping. We're like, "Oh my god, it's a crisis. What do we do about it? It's natural. Our use of plastic is probably natural. It's probably all somehow or another connected to take us out of our territorial primate bodies and move us into some new stage of existence. Like some postbiological Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. I think it's inevitable and I'm not fighting it. Does Elon agree with that? Like we're moving toward that direction? Well, he most certainly thinks that we are moving into a direction where we converge and um I mean he said about this is what I mean the dude's literally cutting holes in people's heads and shoving [__] circuits in there and doing a lot of wild [__] with it. I mean people are using their their eyes like aimbots and a paralyzed gentleman that we have had on the podcast was the first neural link patient. I watch that. Yeah. He he said it's like a cheat code like he because he look where he looks that's where the cursor goes and he just shoots people you know like he's shooting people with his mind Fortnite on a video game or something playing video games with his mind and he's like excellent at it. Well you got to think well eventually you'll be able to move your body that way and then eventually you'll have all sorts of other tools that didn't exist before. And one of the things that Elon has famously said is you're going to be able to talk without words. That's the hive mind. We're moving towards that. And this gets us into all this weird UAP [__] Like what are these aliens? What are these experiences that people are having? Like what is this all a mass hallucination? Is it us from the future? Is it us from the past?

Is it another species that's far more advanced than us that's come down here to monitor us and shepherd us through our very difficult time? Um, whatever it is, they seem to be what we're going to be if we keep going in this direction. Our brains are far larger than monkeys. Yeah. Our bodies are far weaker pound-for-pound than any of the other primates. So what do they look like? They look like these [__] spinly things with no muscles and giant heads. And they they communicate telepathically universally. Like everyone from all over the world, every planet or every country rather that's experienced these creatures, they all say the same thing. They all say they communicate with them telepathically, which that's where we're going, which is exactly what you experience on DMT, right? and like you can get a a a test drive of of what that's like. Do you know that the original when the the original scientists or I guess were anthropologists or what kind of people were studying uh Iawasa when they first went down to the Amazon um they wanted to call harm telepathine. They didn't know that it had already because the rules of scientific nomenclature it would it already been named. So they they didn't know. So this substance that these people had created, one of the aspects of it, they wanted to talk, they wanted to talk to it as telepathy, that they wanted to refer to it that way. So they that was what they were going to call it scientifically. Because they had experienced these telepathic moments while on it, but because it had already been named, they weren't allowed to rename it. So they just stuck with Harmonine. But Harmine had a real chance of being called Telepathine. That's beautiful. Wild. Yeah. And it it it just seems like consciousness is coming to the forefront of every debate right now. The telepathy tapes shot out of of a cannon. Like nobody's ever heard of that stuff. And I think you had the director or something on the show. And it just seems like the level of certainty that some people have about consciousness is adorable. Adorable to me. It's like we're these little hairless monkeys and we're like every generation is like, "Oh yeah, that we didn't know a hundred years ago, but now we know. [laughter] We know now, It's just ridiculous." And yeah, but that's we that's the ego, right? That's the certainty. We need that certainty. And I think we're at a place where curiosity maybe except for politics, curiosity isn't really dangerous anymore. It was like people got are scared to be publicly curious or to be public question something like why is this here? Why is that there? Do you know who Ignos Simlvvice was? No. He was a a doctor back in the day. No idea what year it was but it was very very early days. He was the guy who said hey maybe in between these operating room patients what if we wash this blood off of our hands before I go do this next operation? [laughter] and he got laughed out of the room and then eventually thrown into an insane asylum where he died for questioning this thing. And it seems like so much of what's going on with like psychedelics research even though like document after document is showing it's the most effective thing for PTSD and anxiety and depression and addiction and all this other stuff. And I'm not a champion researcher in any of this stuff, but it seems like kind of coming out, people are getting the same treatment as as this guy did when they're coming out, even though like it's been documented so well, and it's still a a schedule one drug. Well, I think now that's changing. And I think there's an I think one of the things that's changing it is the acceptance of it by the right. And one of some of them at least the old boomers they don't want to let go. But the young guys like especially special forces guys, SEALs, Rangers, those kind of guys, they come back. So many of their buddies have had experiences and then recognize when one of their friends is struggling and take them to have these experiences and that word's getting out.

Sean Ryan's responsible for a lot of that because he's he's talked really openly about it and obviously he has a huge platform. Um, but Marcus Latrell, you know, him talking about it and then Rick Perry, the former governor of Texas, Republican governor of Texas who hated marijuana, hated psychedelics, thought it was all just a bunch of hippie [__] Well, he had brain atrophy, natural age related brain atrophy. And the doctor said, "Oh, it's just pretty normal, you know, standard. You're fine." Uh, goes and does this I gain session. Comes back. Rick did it himself. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A couple. He's done a few. goes and does this I gain session uh comes back the doctor says you felt like it's 25% improval improvement rather in your brain atrophy. So then 6 months later he goes back again for another scan. His brain atrophy is gone. It's gone. He says he feels different. He thinks different. He feels better. Like his mind works better. So it's not just an experience. Ibegan in particular, it seems to be neuro regenerative in a profound way that if this was a drug that you could patent, the pharmaceutical drug companies would be all over this [__] Yeah. and and it' be the it's proving to be one of the most effective drugs ever tested. If you're if you're looking at like efficacy versus like a sample size, it's one of the most effective ever tested. Andy Stump and I just did a a show about it. Uh we're talking about this stuff and and he's brought a lot of awareness to this and I if I think if we could get a little bit of awareness to it, I think we could cure a lot of this stuff. But I think the number one thing is like is there a way that we can help to get this faster to people and and they're working on it. Brian Huard and Rick Perry that I mean Rick Perry's said openly that this is my life's mission now. You know, really Yeah. I mean, former governor, Republican governor of Texas. His life's mission is to promote psychedelics. I'm so glad. Oh, I'm so glad. And this is another Ibagane is the best one to start out with because I has zero recreational use. It's zero. You It's not fun. Nobody likes it. It's not a good time. You throw up. You [__] yourself. You You freak out for 24 hours, but when you come back, you're a different person. And if you're willing to do that, if you're willing to do that, you can change. You could you could do a lot of fixing all that's and als maybe maybe even more importantly be aware of what these little traps these little these little deeply carved grooves that your consciousness seems to comfortably slip into over and over again. Whether it's alcoholism or gambling or whatever it is, it seems to just shut those down. In a very profound way that you can't get anywhere else. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just it kind I think it zooms you out to where you're like, "Oh [__] I thought all that was important." Like you're talking about zooming out on these galaxies and within galaxies and black holes and stuff. It gives you that perspective like, "Whoa, I I thought I was really special.

I thought I was super important. I Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is one of the things that most psychedelics do is they remove that idea completely. They go, "This is You've got to get rid of this. This is tripping you up. You're carrying this [__] weight around everywhere and it's really stopping your progress. Yeah. And it's it's kind of like uh it's like you're in a video game and then somebody uh comes back and be like, "Hey man, uh here's the way that here's the [__] you need to actually worry about. You don't need to do all this other stuff." Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Like a little helper guy in the video game. Guys, got to come with me. This is the wrong room. They're coming. We got to get out of this room. Don't do that quest. That's That's what it is. And I mean, I'm a I'm a hypnosis uh guy. I studied all the brainwashing, interrogation, uh kind of stuff. This is the fastest way, I think. And I've studied every possible way to change human behavior that that probably has ever been researched. And this is bar none the fastest. And I think the the one of the reasons that it helps people so much and I I don't want to this is going to turn into a two-hour psychedelics discussion, but it's your show. I don't care. Okay. Uh I think it's because perspective shifting is what happens. It's like it if you're looking at life and you're you have this little GoPro is your consciousness and you're looking at this level, it just snatches that thing up and zooms it out and puts it in another location where you're like, "Oh my god, I had no idea it was like this, right?" And it seems to be that that perspective, just the shift in perspective seems to be the number one thing that psychedelics produce therapeutically. And that's the thing that like cognitive behavioral therapy is is trying to get done over the course of like 10 or 12 years or you know, however long it takes. But it just seems like it does it so fast and a profound way. And the stuff is non-addictive, non-toxic. Uh you're not going to see it's not a street drug. You're not going to see people out there on the street selling like DMT capsules. And and DMT I would say similar to IBAN is not recreational. I think it is. You think DMT is recreational? Yeah. I think there's a lot of people that recreationally do it. I think that would be your thought, you know, oh, we'll just do this and have fun and then once you do it, it's no longer recreational. Once you It's too profound to be just purely recreational. Yeah. You've heard of people getting banned from Yes, I have. Jamie and I were just talking about this. Yeah. I knew a guy who's a tattoo artist who got banned. And you can keep taking DMT.

Like you can go take 10 hits on a a DMT vape pen or something and you're not going anywhere. Isn't that nuts? It's insane. It's like they just decide. No, no, no. You're doing this for the wrong reasons. I listened to one guy describe it and he's like it's basically like you're knocking on the door of a nightclub and like the the [laughter] little thing opens up. It's like no, you're not coming in. You got to think like what are they doing wrong? Yeah. I think maybe going in with ego seems to be one of the things I see that's in common and and people trying just treating it like a little recreational thing. The ego thing is a problem even within psychedelics because there's sort of a carve out that happens which I always refer to as spiritual narcissism. There's a bunch of people that do it that somehow or another want to be a a guru or a leader. and to show you that they're somehow or another better because they have had these experiences, they know more and they pretend they know more. They pretend they know more and then they get a whole bunch of people that are, you know, very suggestible and those people sort of listen to them and then that's how you start a cult. And this there's something Yeah. to that. There's a specific type of narcissism that occurs um from regular psychedelic use when people want to like lead groups of people. Yeah. And I think if you go into a a journey or two with no ego, do you know what you learn? Less like you're less certain every time. Oh yeah. About the world. From the moment you get in there, you're like, "Oh, how is this real? How how is this available 15 seconds away from normal reality?" Yes. Yeah. And I I definitely think that we're moving forward. If we move forward with psychedelics, our species is going to move forward. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I agree. And uh I think I I think all the time what would have happened if that sweeping psychedelics acts, the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 hadn't been enacted. If this stuff had been available to people for the last, you know, 56 years, what would that be like? Yeah. What would the 94 Ford Taurus actually look like? [laughter] Be dope. It would look like a 69 Mustang. Yeah, [laughter] cuz those are the people that were doing drugs. Exactly. I mean, there's no there's no other explanation in my mind why cars started looking like [__] and music. With Downhill. We had some good music because there's a bunch of people that still did drugs. But there's there was a giant change between 1950 and 1960 with automobiles, with music, with everything. And I think a large part of that, if you really being honest, a large part of that is psychedelics. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, you look look, have you ever gone into a huge mosque and looked up at the ceiling?

Oh, it's incredible. It looks like exactly like what you see on all this stuff. I'll I'll go no further on that topic, but um and just all the ancient artwork, it it's very so psychedelic and beautiful. It's like they got written out of history somehow. And I think there's a difference between drugs and medicine. Can we take a pee break? Sure. Sure. Go ahead. Take a pee break. I'm good. But I'll hold I think it's the coffee. Yeah. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer, soccer is here and the watch parties will be going back to backto back. But don't worry, Uber Eats has your game day essentials covered with 30% off all orders from Aldi, Kroger, and Dollar General. All the snacks and groceries to keep your crowd happy delivered straight to your door like chips, dips, wings, guac, and fresh ingredients for the perfect game day spread. Order in so you can stay locked in on the game. All the hosting, none of the hassle. Order now for 30% off your game day snacks and grocery order only on Uber Eats for a limited time. Offer eligible for 30% off entire order. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Offer valid through July 5th. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. Pull it up, Jamie. I don't know. So, we're looking at uh Jamie pulled up a bunch of photos of inside of mosques and that that in particular that is absolutely a DMT So, here's the question. Like I feel like I've been to that right. How about this location? I mean that looks super DMT. I've spent time there. Not in that mosque, but like in that dimension. What is that? Uh one, Jamie to the upper left. You just you you scroll up up left upper left corner that Yeah. Look at that. I this doesn't What the [__] is that? Is that 3D? Yeah, it does. Oh, you know what that is, dude? I think that's Alex Gay's place. Is it? It says it's in Iran. Oh, okay. Oh my god. Well, well, you know what Alex Gay is doing?

It's incredible. Non-denominational. Yeah. It's just like like a Rothco like the Rothco chapel, you know? He's one of those guys, you know what I was talking about with spiritual narcissism running a group. He's the he's the opposite of that. Like he's pure. And his place, like this is his artwork, but this is his place. And if you look at the outside of it, that's the outside of the place. That is so cool. So the outside of the place is basically like 3D printed artwork of his that they've constructed into a building. I don't even know how he did it. It must have cost a fuckload of money. A bunch of people donated. But the inside of his I think that is so he used to have a place in New York City that was like a gallery that was the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors. So where's that His daughter does a lot of painting. So that is it. That's on the Hudson. Yeah. In the Hudson Valley. I mean he's incredible incredible artist and his ability to capture that experience like that one. If you go back. Oh, actually scroll down to the lower left right there. The Egyptian looking one. Lower right there. Bam. I've seen that, dude. I've 100% seen that. I've seen that, too. But go back to the other one that we were just looking at. No, that's not the same. That's the one I've seen. I' I've literally seen that. I've seen that those and they move and change and morph. he's just able to nail it. I don't know how he does that. [sighs] He's incredible. a great one, he's a good artist, but two, being able to bring that back with coherence to where you can kind of show someone what it's like. I remember seeing that face and I was like in in the DMT space, I was like, "Is that me?" And right when I said that, the mouth moved exactly like my mouth and I was like, "That is me." Well, you're it and it's you and you're everyone. You're everyone and it's everyone. Yeah. The It's the weird thing with the mosques. If you go back to some of those images, please of the mosques, the first one that you pulled up, the ceiling, h what were they doing? Not that one. Um the the original one that you pulled up. That one. Yeah. Like that's very very DMT. So like what were they doing that they saw this? And is that was that a part of their religion at one point in time? And has that been forgotten? Like what is it? Like why why did that exist? Go back to the one. The first one, please. It had to. That one. Those colors seem a little sus.

Oh, really? You think it's AI? Yeah. I just I've just seen so much AI stuff from last year. It doesn't look could be like the rest of them. Well, go to that that website. Up rather. I mean, the photo just looks a little spruced up. Go to that website where it says 50 mesmerizing mosques. Yeah. If it says where it is, then I totally say where it is. That's in Iran. We probably blew that up already. Uh, God, I hope not. I hope not, too. I mean, didn't Israel blow up a bunch of like ancient Christian places in Lebanon? Believe they did. I don't know. Same place. This is the same place. So, that's a whatever that place is. Is that the same place? Yeah, that is a very psychedelic place. Okay, look at that one. That's nuts. So, what were they doing? Is that 3D? Well, it's like Yeah, it's like a 3D photo, so it's manipulated in a weird way. Okay. So, that's like an fisheye, right? But either way, the just the designs themselves are the actual design. So, like what were they doing that they wanted that to be represented? And is that missing? Cuz there's a great book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. You ever read that? The John Marco Allegro book. Yeah. So John Marco Allegro who was an ordained minister but he was agnostic and he was a guy that studied theology and his conclusion after year I mean even being an ordained minister his conclusion was that like it's probably not any one religion doesn't have it right. And so he was one of the people that was brought on to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls. He deciphers it for 14 years. He works on it and he writes this book called the sacred mushroom and the cross where he believes that the entire story of Christianity is connected to the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and fertility cults. Have you seen like Jamie? Am I allowed to ask Jamie to pull something? Sure. That like one of the original paintings of Jesus was him with a bunch of mushrooms, And and Yeah. Well, the Adam and Eve the fresco in France. So that Adam and Eve fresco uh that's painted on this god I want to say it's at least a thousand years old. It's painted on this wall in France is Adam and Eve and the tree of life. And the tree of life is mushrooms. It's it's the tree of knowledge. Like the fruit of knowledge, Right. It's not the tree of life. It's the fruit of knowledge. But this the story of it like that like what is the actual reference to why in the Bible I don't want to paraphrase it as to why God told them not to eat from the fruit of that tree. Pull put that into perplexity. What did God say to Adam? By the way, everybody blaming Eve. Adam was the only one who talked to God.

We don't even know if Adam told Eve. He might have forgot to tell her and then blamed the whole human race suffering forever. I didn't know that. Yeah, I read I read that read that over and over again. I'm like, where does it say that Adam told Eve? It doesn't God told Adam, eat from any tree in the garden except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And that if he ate from it, he would surely die. You are free to eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For when you eat from it, you will certainly die. Okay. And what does that mean? Right. You will die of what? Ego death. Because if that's what it is. And then the weird thing is that the whole connection between the Amanita mascaria and um the psychedelic book uh or rather the sacred mushroom and the c cross book is that the ammonita mascaria is a red mushroom that looks like an apple. And in fact, the term like there's like confusion as to whether or not the term apple is actually the meaning the a red thing and then it might not actually be an apple, but it might actually be the original version of it might have been the Ammonia. And then you have to think how many thousands of years has this been around that it took how many different people have translated it? How many different people have passed on the story? Like what was the source? What was the original story? And why delete it, Why? How does this get deleted so like pervasively? Oh, yeah. Around the whole world. And have you heard the Christmas traditions as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Santa Claus is a mushroom. Wow. Oh my [laughter] gosh. And it's the same mushroom, the Amonita mascaria. The weird thing about the ammonita mascaria is it doesn't like not a lot of people have had psychedelic experiences on it. I It's very weird mushroom. Do you think it evolved maybe over time or it very well could have? Um McKenna had some thoughts on it. They said that it could be uh seasonal, it could be location, it could be like where it is. It could be genetic variations. It could be very there's could be a bunch of different factors. And if you consume it by way of reindeer piss, Well, not only that, people drink their piss when they consume it and it gives them like the second dose, the second burst. So apparently the psychedelic compounds come through the urine and if you drink it, you just get a full straight blast. Yeah. And reindeer have been known to like knock shamans out of the way to drink their their piss because the reindeer are addicted to this mushroom, which is why they fly in the Santa Claus story. And I heard the story these shamans would go around pulled by dog sleds or something and the snow was so high that they would drop the stuff down the chimney to these people and it was fresh mushrooms or fresh ammonita or something and in order to dry it out you'd have to hang it by the fire right and you hang it over the trees too that people would put it on trees and that's where the decorating the Christmas tree is. Also those mushrooms, the ammonita mascara has a microisal relationship with coniferous trees. I didn't know this. Yeah. So that's where they grow. They grow underneath the trees just like the brightly packaged presents that are underneath the trees on Christmas. This story is it's a crazy story. It's like what did we what did we forget? Yeah. How much did we forget? What's been revised? Right. Well, just think about what we're just talking about inside of our generation. So, the 1970 Control Substances Act, now that is a that's a government that's uh restricting the its citizens and trying to control its citizens. And one of the ways it does it is limit their psychedelic experiences.

That's not the only time that's happened, right? That's the Illoosinian mysteries. That's from Brian Morescu's book um the immortality key. Like that's this is what they did back then. They banned these rituals. Why? Because it's very difficult to control people when you realize that we're all one. You know, it's almost impossible. It doesn't work. They don't want to listen. You don't want to do it. You know, you start getting your lawmakers and your military people start doing it. Well, then wars becomes impossible. Absolutely impossible at that point. That's me. I'm I'm hurting myself, right? Doing all of that. Exactly. Yeah. And it's insane. It is insane. It it I want to I wish there was like on a Google doc how you can look at revision history. I wish there was something like that for our race, our species. Right. Right. Just so much has been changed and modified and and we have historians, but we don't they're they're studying something that's been permitted and something that's been officially released. And this is more certainty. It's just more certainty. like, "Oh, oh, that reindeer story, that's [__] cuz I got this book from Yeah, they don't know. It's [__] Likensstein or, you know, whatever [clears throat] from this historian." Just plead to authority that you have the answers, [__] You don't have the answers. Yeah, you definitely don't. You can't It's not possible. You can't have those answers. And we're we're in an age where this is proving to help with so many other things. And it's not just depression, but it's like Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, myastthenia, gravis, multiple sclerosis, um, autism, it's helping with. Would you see that woman that had dementia that took five grams of mushrooms and slept for like 19 hours and woke up and then she could talk? You didn't see that story? Yeah. There's a recent story. There was a woman. She was non-verbal. She couldn't communicate. She couldn't dress herself. Couldn't walk. Couldn't do anything. took five grams of mushroom, slept for 19 hours, came back, started communicating, looking people in the eye, was able to change herself, was able to walk around. How beautiful. Crazy. And then with subsequent doses, her condition improved even more. And you had uh I think it was Paul Stamatson and he helped his mother through cancer, I think, like stage three cancer with turkey tail or something. I I can't remember what it was. Well, there's a bunch of mushrooms that help with inflammation. And there's a bunch of mushrooms that help with cognitive function. You know, lion's mane is famous for that. You know, there's there's some weird relationship that we have with fungus. And one of the interesting things about fungus, we think of it as like a plant, but it's not. It breathes air. Breathes air like people do.

It's a weird thing. And it also can survive in a vacuum. It can survive in the vacuum of space. Yeah. which is the panspermia notion that mushroom spores were came here riding on an asteroid slammed into the earth and it might be one of the reasons why we're people in the first place. That's McKenna's idea. Yeah. Yeah. Of of how we like separated from our ancestral like cro-Magnon. Roots. Yeah. Yeah. I mean this whole idea that people were created by aliens. Yeah. Maybe maybe those aliens are mushrooms. I mean, or maybe mushrooms is the way the aliens created people. It, you know, it might be just how you add a little bit of fertilizer to the tomato plants to make them awesome. And it's just every generation like this generation says, "Oh, we're in this computer simulation right now." But, you know, during the industrial revolution, the universe was a machine and we started doing electricity and the universe was energy and vibration. Yeah. And now we invent computers and all of a sudden the universe is a computer. It's just every iteration. So I I tend to think that any theory that assumes humans are super special. Uh I'm I'm a little skeptical. Because it assumes that a like these ancient like way up high beings have like a MacBook that they're trying to run this [__] on and they're like well the hard drive would need to be the size of the solar system. Like just assuming that they have the same [__] that we do, It's unbelievable. [snorts] Yeah, that's a that's a funny comparison. They used to think the universe was a machine. It's apt. So dead on. It's uh we always want to try to figure it out. I think it's way more complicated. And I think the more we figure it out, the more we realize it's way more complicated. And it it is all connected. Like people are super special. We really are. But so is everything else. Exactly. Everything's super special. This is a And everything is weirdly connected. Yeah. And even if you look at regular ass science, just basic ass science, and you look at an Allen Watts quote of like we are the universe experiencing itself, that's just regular science. If we are the Big Bang, then we are the universe and we are experiencing it itself. And and you don't need to do any stretches of imagination for that to be true. And Roger Penrose uh doesn't even think the Big Bang is the start of the universe. He thinks it's a series of big bangs. Oh, really? Yeah. He thinks it's like a never- ending cycle. Did you have him on? Yeah, a long time ago. What year we have uh Roger Penrose on? Isn't it Sir Penrose now? Yes. Didn't he get Sir United? I'm American though. Yeah. I tend to shy away from those fool foolish knight. That's another thing.

Oh, he's a knight. That's a king. Oh, you know, did I I don't know if we talked about last time. Have I told you that like I figured out a way to edit memory? Like you can do it with hypnosis. So I know that you can introduce false memories into people's heads. And I know that people create their own false memories. So you found a way to do that different than that? Yes. And uh I make videos similar to this on my you my YouTube channel, but I wanted to walk you through this process because I think you would love it. Um so if I want somebody to be able to edit a memory, I need to make them good at that skill first. So and we already edit memories. Every time we touch a memory, like if I think back to my wedding right now, I'll edit something and I I'll do it unknowingly, right? So if our brain is already an expert at making these changes and then like before I I stop thinking about that wedding, my brain automatically clicks file save, right? And then so the next time I look back on it, the memory is going to be there, but it won't I won't see it as an edit. I'll just see it as that's the memory no matter how many times I change it. Does that make sense? Okay. [snorts] So first we need to get them to start doing some of that stuff consciously. Um, so if you take somebody back to let's say a childhood bedroom when they're seven, okay? And you you do it very vividly with hypnosis. So like you're you're going in their file cabinet. You let them explore the bedroom, the details, all this kind of stuff. You make it extremely vivid and and coherent. And then you have them pick up like a a pencil, a really sharp, brand new pencil, maybe from their pencil box from school or something, and they go over by the light switch in the bedroom, and just make one dot on a wall. Um, and I figured this out talking to game developers. Uh, and I was talking to game developers about how people figure out ways to exit the map, to exit the playable area of the game, because it kind of feels like that's what psychedelics do. there's like it lets us kind of exit this little playable map uh temporarily. So, one of these game developers said, "Oh, you just if you can get somebody to modify one pixel, then they can modify the entire map." So, if if one pixel is glitching, then we can glitch you can glitch all kinds of stuff. So, I thought maybe we can do that in humans. So, I've done this hundreds of times. Um, so you just make a mark on the wall with a pencil and then you kind of fast forward their life. So like you bring them to like say they were six. Now we're going to bring them back into the room when they're eight. The bed sheets are different. Maybe the wall color changed, something like that. But the one thing they can do is walk over there to the light switch and see that that tiny little dot is still there. So something and now you're starting to see that there's permanence through time. Does it make sense so far? Yeah. So if if we can get them to do that like 50 times, tiny change, you're doing it through hypnosis. I mean, hypnosis is such a loaded crazy word. They're they're relaxed. They feel safe and their brain is in theta brain wave state most of the time, which is around seven hertz. Yeah. I've been hypnotized. Um and I thought it was going to be like uh I didn't know what was going on. I was in another world. No, it's a it's a very odd state of mind. Yeah. It's kind of like guided meditation or but you feel very conscious. It's not and I remembered it. It wasn't didn't wake up my pants off was pretty normal. Become a manurian candidate as far as you know. As far as I know. Right. So, uh if you can do this 15 20 30 times of one pixel at a time and show that it's permanent through time, then you can go back to other events and instead of editing the memory itself, you teach them how to shift perspective. So you now you take them through 30 more events really quick.

A true events, a birthday party, a dinner, adult life, children, doesn't matter. And now like let's say I'm at at a dinner party. Can I jump from one body to another and experience the event through that lens? So now so first we make them an expert at editing memory and seeing permanence in time. Second is perspective shifting in real memory. So I can jump across the table. I can be at my own wedding and maybe be somebody in the front row and like just shift their perspective in memory. The final layer is exactly what psychedelics do. So the final layer is go back to that event when you got kicked in the nuts and everybody laughed at you in elementary school or whatever and you can reprocess that memory in a very short amount of time as an adult with the perspective of an adult. So meaning like so if you had a traumatic event in high school where somebody beat you up in front of everybody and everybody mocked you and it just like destroyed your year and destroyed your confidence, you can go back and shift this person's experience. Yeah. And and instead of modify the memory like oh that never happened the memory stays. The perspective changes. So now and now you show permanence over time. So that that has downstream effects for all kinds of stuff later in life. So, this is when a script got written of I've got to be tough, I've got to be loud or somebody's going to hurt me or you know what I mean, like one of these little childhood scripts. Um, so you get the downstream effect. So, you can go in there and there's pro you could probably edit memories. I've always been nervous to modify stuff that's way more than like a pixel or something insignificant, but the memory stays the same. The perspective is what changes. And you can show that it it's got a demonstrable effect downstream of that. their whole life can can be different after that day. And it's just like a mushroom. That's exactly what psych psychedelics do is this massive perspective shift on memory. And so is this something that you're actively doing? Uh with clients, I'll do this on occasion, but now is anybody else doing it? Maybe a few. There's probably a few people doing it. And is there any like times where you guys get together and discuss techniques and what's effective and what's not effective? And there should be uh we don't right because it seems like this is it's kind of a big deal and it seems like someone could [__] it up like it it has the potential for delusional perspective shifting. There's Yeah, it's I mean you got to be responsible about it. But nowadays, I think that that psychedelics can achieve a lot of that without having to go through some like I need you to go back to the original event and like having me vocally take you back there using this archaic stupid ass language uh that can't even describe a psychedelic experience with this language. So, right, um this is what I was doing mostly before psychedelics. Then you know how I got into psychedelics was uh the spirit molecule movie that you you did the voice over for it and that was what kind of introduced me to the entire the field of everything where I thought wow this it this just doesn't seem like a recreational drug and that was the big shift was watching that that documentary for me. Yeah. My big shift was reading Rick Stman's book. I still haven't read it. I need to. Yeah. Um he was the first guy to get FDA approval to do psychedelic studies and the way he did it was very clever. He did it to prove that these are damaging and dangerous. That's how he framed it. That's so brilliant. He's a very smart guy. I mean, we're talking about a guy who taught himself ancient Hebrew. Oh, wow. Yeah. over 16 years taught himself to read and speak ancient Hebrew so that he could really read the Bible in its original form. He's fascinated by prophecy and ancient religious stories and you know he like a lot of people that have had DMT experiences you um once you do you look at those old stories and you go okay what what are these stories really? What was the original what was the original event?

Like it's so hard when you're you're like Moses in the burning bush. Well, there's scholars in Israel that think that burning bush was the acacia tree and that the acacia tree is rich in DMT. And that might be what it represents. This experience of meeting God through a burning bush is he smoked DMT. Which for anybody who's done DMT, they go, "Oh, that makes sense." Like I mean these scholars I don't think these scholars are freaks. I don't think they're psychedelic heads. I think they're just religious scholars that are trying to like figure out like what was the origin of that story. Yeah. I' I've never heard of that. The acacia. Yeah. Well, acacia tree very rich in DMT, but a manaris grass very rich in DMT. Mimosa. Yeah. Plant. And for people that don't know the the reason why well DMT exists in probably thousands of different plants but you can eat those plants and not experience DMT because of monoamine oxidase. So mono MAO is what your gut makes to break this stuff down so it doesn't become psychoactive. But when you take an MAO inhibitor and the psychedelic then you get iawasa. That's what I is. That's why it's an orally active version of DMT. Yeah. Which methylene blue is an MAOI. Oh, interesting. It's a pretty light. It's a pretty light form of it. But if you're on methylene blue and you do psychedelics, it's going to deepen. I can imagine. A lot of people are very hesitant about methylene blue. They don't like the idea of it. They think it's very dangerous or potentially dangerous that we don't know enough about it. We've been researching it since 1890 something and it's in every emergency room. Is it really? every emergency room. Have you ever heard of anybody having bad experiences with methylene blue or side effects or There are some contraindications. So, people that are on a high dose SSRI Um, and if you're taking an MAI, you can't eat a cheese and wine because of this chemical called tyrrosine that's in there. Oh, aged cheese. So, something about the the fungus. No, it's a mold. Yeah, maybe there's red wine and a cheese both have tyrrosine. Uh, which when you mix tyrrosine with an MAI, it could can cause a hypertensive crisis. Oh, so like a super blood pressure issue. But I I haven't heard anybody having a a bad time with it, but you you got to stick to the right dose. Talk to obviously you got to talk to a doctor Well, let's ask AI. Um, put that into AI. Put that into perplexity. see what is the negative consequences of taking methylene blue. Maybe there's something that we don't know. Um Huberman's a little bit hesitant about it, you know. You see, and I've talked to other people that say it seems like for a certain metabolic condition, it's very beneficial, but for people that have a normal metabolic, like your your whole system is working fine and perfect, it might not not just not be necessary, but might cause harm. But they were very vague about what that harm would be.

I don't think it's for everybody. It may not be for everybody. Uh it def it saves my life. Uh for sure. Uh which I mean I could stop taking it today and I'll have a seizure within 48 hours. That's wild. You said you had a seizure at last time after you visited here. The night before I came on the show. Wow. Okay. Methylene Blue. This is our AI sponsor, Perplexity. Methylene blue can cause a range of side effects from mild nuisance symptoms to rare but life-threatening reactions, especially at higher doses or when combined with certain medications. Um, common short-term side effects, headaches, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Nothing. Don't be a [__] Yeah, my toilets are actually stained from pee. Yeah. Yeah, it does make your pee blue. Sweating, feeling hot or cold, muscle twitches, harmless blue green discoloration of urine, sometimes stool or skin. Serious risk. serotonin syndrome when combined with anti-depressants just like you were just saying or other serotonin drugs SSRIs SNRIs uh MAIS some opioids St. John's wart G6PD is a big contra indication there. So methylene blues in ERS because of meth hemoglobinia which is like when you your hemoglobin can't bind to oxygen really well. The only cure for cyanide poisoning is methylene blue. Really? Cyanide. It will stop cyanide in its tracks. Whoa. It probably says that on. Oh, interesting. Safety for chronic lowd dose experimenting for anti-aging or cognition is not well established and is current not currently recommended without medical supervision. I know a lot of people that take it. I know a lot of people that take it. I know Bobby Bobby takes it. Uhhuh. Yeah. He's one of them. Um, a lot of people that take it that say it it improves cognitive function. It's supposed to um, also when you take it with red light therapy, it's supposed to greatly increase the effect. Unbelievably so. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Because I mean number if you want to go into it for just a minute here. Methylene blue has what's called a neuronal affinity. So they used to like you stick it on a microscope slide with a brain cell, it sucks into the neuron uh, like automatically. And it does the same thing in your body. So if I know that I'm I'm basically dying all of my neurons blue, and I'm not just talking about in your head. Like we have neurons everywhere, our whole body. So if I'm dying a lot of my neurons blue, and I see something that's blue, methylene blue is blue because it reflects blue light, which also means that it absorbs almost all red.

M. So, if my neurons are dyed blue and then I go into near infrared and infrared light, uh, I know that I'm I'm getting way more absorption in there. Let's [__] go. That makes sense. In the third stage of stage of cellular breathing, uh, we produce this chemical called cytochrome C oxidase. And cytochrome is like cell color cytochroma where our cells can start running essentially running on photons which is beautiful and amazing. And if you get a good red light system um and I have no plug um but you get a good red light system it'll penetrate through the skull up to like four inches through your skull in good systems. Whoa. Even lasers and they make laser beds and all this other stuff. Yeah, I have a one of those red light bed that looks like a tanning bed. I bought it up from Gary Breakfast Company. It's very expensive, but it's pretty profound. Um, I don't need uh reading glasses anymore. I used to have these [__] things everywhere all over my house. I used to need them to read my phone if I wanted to read an email. I don't need them anymore. Yeah. It's nuts. And I don't bring them with me anymore. I if I would go on the road before and I had to do a trip for the UFC or whatever and I didn't have my reading glasses, I'm like, "Fuck, now I got to make everything big. I can't read anything." Not anymore. No, my my vision got better from red light therapy. I don't doubt it. For sure. I also don't close my eyes. I keep my eyes wide open. They're like, "Oh, you need goggles like like you're [__] staring at the um the some nuclear bomb or something." Yeah, it's not. No. So, it doesn't seem to bother my vision at all. Yeah. And I've I've heard so many doctors, and obviously none of this is advice for anybody. Um I've heard so many doctors say, "Throw the safety goggles in the trash. Look right into it if you want to. It's going to help your eyes." There's so many stories of people with macular degeneration and glaucoma and eye conditions and stuff that it's gotten multitudes better than than it was. Obviously, my story is anecdotal, but my vision was shifting in a real a real bad way. I was using three those three power ones, you know, those cheap these things cheap. I buy them off Amazon, but I use three and I started with one like one power and then it got to two power and then I'll get to three. I'm like, Jesus Christ, I'm [__] going blind. I can't see [__] I don't need any anymore. Now, my vision's not perfect. It's not 2020. It's not what it used to be. So when I read things, it's like maybe slightly blurry and if I put reading glasses on, it'll look a little better, but I don't need them anymore and it keeps getting better. I also take luteine and a bunch of different supplements. I take this uh no affiliation. I don't work with them or anything, but it's called uh pure encapsulations macular support. They have a supplement for it. I take those. I've been taking those steadily. At the same time, I've been doing the red light therapy, and it works.

At least it works for me, you know. Uh, it worked for Whitney Cummings. Same thing with her. Her her vision got way better. She She's very diligent about it. She does it every day. There's something there. something there. Well, there's for sure something about staring at a [__] phone all day that's really bad for your eyes. Staring at a phone, staring at a tablet, staring at a laptop, staring at a computer screen. It's not good for your eyes. Period. There's no way. There's no way. When I look at my phone in bed at night, if I do, it hurts my eyes. You know, like if it's dark in the room and I'm like, "Let me check my email real quick." I get to my email, it's like it's like it's bright. If I go to a website that's like a white website, it's like, it hurts. Yeah. And did you know you can change your iPhone? Like if you go into uh accessibility, it's like color overlay. I forget the name of it where you can make the whole screen red. I I have seen people do that. I have not do done that. I've tried to do it on mine. I It's tough, but I did it on our 2-year-old's iPad and nothing is addictive anymore. Like she won't sit there and stare at it for more than three or four minutes Yeah. And it's just like I didn't buy some special device or anything. You just go into accessibility and make it red. And it used to be that she would just sit there and hold the iPad. I'm I'm an anti- electronics guy. So, I wanted to try this experiment. And the moment I turned it red, she didn't complain about the red. She got used to it within 15 minutes and never complained again. Her iPad has never gone off of the red mode. And that she doesn't get hooked into shows anymore. She'll watch it for a few minutes, be like, "Okay, that's great. Put it down and then go." She'll go play. So, it's it's worth an experiment if anybody's got little small kids out there or do it to yourself. It's amazing that they provide you with a tool to escape the addiction that they've created. [laughter] It's so true, man. Because it's a pretty intense addiction. I I think they feel like good luck, you know, you you never getting off this hook. This hook is sunk in deep and the barb is strong It's so strong. And that [clears throat] it's the it's the production tool of of reality right now. If I want to alter reality, I've just got to engineer how you see it. And like that's that's the way that we see reality. What's on my phone? What's being Yeah. And that's the problem that a lot of people have with tech companies is that you're giving these people that aren't particularly wise. They might be intelligent.

They figured out how to code these things and make these things and market these things, but it's not like they're monks. They're not these like profound visionaries that are much more educated, enlightened than the general population, right? No, a lot of them have autism and no empathy. They're out of their [__] minds and they're optimizing the software continually to get people to engage with it. They they want you to. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the IBIDA. That's the bottom line. Revenue comes from ads. And [clears throat] how many ads can I show you? Mhm. If I know I know your data, how much data of yours can I sell? It's nuts. Which is why like I think it's so important for people to be literate, extremely literate in what's going on with your phone, what's going on with your brain and scops, like the [__] that we see coming out of the news right now. And I'm the guy that trains SCOPS. In two days after I leave here, I'm going to Fort Bragg to train the United States Army Scops Division. I'm the I'm the [laughter] guy. What are you training them in? Are you allowed to say in SCOPS? Are you just training them how they work and how to do it? Yeah. Like how Yeah, I'm the body language like people reading guy. I don't know if you ever seen our YouTube channel, The Behavior Panel. Me and a couple. You got a great YouTube channel. It's awesome. Really good. Thank you. Thanks. And uh I have another one with three other behavior profilers where we break down videos of people in interrogation and and stuff like that. And I think it's so important to be literate in a lot of this stuff and how does our brain work? How can I be compromised? And so I created a tool and uh I gave it to Jamie uh before we started the show that that will give you a one to 100 score on how likely something is a scop. Oh. And is it an app or is it like on a just a PDF? Okay. And you can run anything through it and see and you can run it historically and see what what's a sign up and what's not. M and it's it's kind of subjective, but at least you get a standardized score for everything. And you can see like if you went to um like the invading Iraq initially. Okay, that's a good one. That would score a 98 out of 100 for for SCP [snorts] just on this tool here. So like it kind of goes in layers. So step one is like this pre-ignition like I have societal stuff going on. There's moral panic. Then operational. Are there drills happening that are kind of similar to this? Military ramping up the regulatory obviously that's pretty there like bills getting passed at 2 in the morning and 5,000 pages, Then alignment. So like people suddenly aligning different news agencies and then authorities, celebrities are starting to come out with the same messaging and stuff like that and then media like just kind of flooding little slogans and stuff. So if that kind of score is kind of high and you don't even need the numbers right now, then we move to the next one. So has this happened before?

Like is there some precursor, And then identical phrasing across unrelated outlets. So we see something on MSNBC and Fox saying the same kind of phrasing or something that's kind of suspicious. and then introduced villains that are prepackaged. Pretty obvious, injecting symbolism and then the manufacturer urgency like if if this bill isn't passed in the next 72 hours, we're going to face a national crisis and all this kind of stuff. And then you could just kind of go down the go down the walkway and it'll give you a predictive score of how likely something is a scout. And one of the biggest things is if if you don't want to like this is a lot of crap to like to memorize, but are you seeing authority figures resonate with each other and are is nuance not being presented to you? And that's like if I'm not seeing nuance, if I have a left versus right issue and there's a prepackaged villain, uh that's a scout. If you just look at those couple of things is then nowadays we have a death of nuance where no one's getting presented any nuance to anything. It's just it's either you're on this side, you're wearing this jersey or this jersey which is really toxic to our our whole entire country, the whole world. And it's accentuated by clips and these weird little things. Yeah. And if you're on the left, take out nuance. Well, let's say I'm I'm on the left. uh when I log into social media, whatever it is, they're going to show me the dumbest [__] morons on the other side that they could possibly find. Y and the same thing if I'm on the right, they're going to show me the biggest idiots. And the the only goal is being like me thinking, "Oh my god, these people are insane." And it's me thinking that's all of them, But like if you go to Target right now and see somebody that voted differently than you, you want the same [__] You want your kids to be healthy. You want safety. You want to pay less taxes. You want to you want the government less and less involved in your life. And um they're not all insane, but the goal is to make you think all the other side is insane, right? That's the ultimate scion. So then at the end here, you kind of get a one to 100 score. And I started a I bought a TV station. Did I tell you about this? I was going to text you or I was going to send you an email about this. I bought a a TV station. We started our own daily news show uh where we run the the day's events all the way through the SCOPS index every single day and we show here's how you're being presented. Here's how you're being made to feel about this issue. Here's where nuance has been taken out. Every single thing that's like truly going on. Here's the bill that got passed that nobody's talking about that has a lot to do with this. Here's the they're saying the straight of Hormuz is going to open, but here's what Brent crude is predicting oil prices at. So the insurance markets has a lot more info than than the news is going to give you. So like try to give you every single day, here's how you're being made to feel. Here's the actual news. Here's what they're the left is going to say. Here's what the right's going to say. And here's where they're killing nuance. Here's where you're being presented a binary choice. And I think I'm I'm trying to like I want to make scops irrelevant. And what would we have to do? What are the steps we have to take to not really inoculate people from science, but just to make them so [__] visible that it's just obvious? And yeah, they're going to have to invent something else and they will, but at least for a few years, people are are really wise to everything. Like this is very obvious because like all the things that were up on that sheet right there, if you look at that a few times, it it starts to become irrelevant. And like my goal is to make people more expensive to influence. I think it's possible. I think if this gets out there, the more people are aware and just can piece it together and the more that narrative starts getting pushed and people start repeating it like, "Yeah, let's pay attention to this." When you say you bought a TV channel or a TV station, what do you mean? Like an actual station, a physical station with a news desk. And where does it air?

Uh, it's on YouTube right now. So, where'd you buy this place? Where was it? Just like 10 minutes from my house. So, was a former TV station that was like going out of business? Yeah, we retrofitted everything, upgraded it. Wow. [snorts] But it's probably a fire sale on TV stations right now. [laughter] Yeah, it was. We got a good deal. Nobody's watching TV and that's great. Yeah, we retrofitted it and like the quality's up there with like Fox or anybody else. Like we have a daily show. What's the daily show on YouTube called? Uh, Station One. Station One. Surprisingly, that wouldn't take it. It's a new channel. Oh, perfect. Brand new channel. We have like most of the subscribers were my mom, I think, for the first month. [laughter] We're growing now. So, you just started it off and no fanfare. Just try to get feet on the ground. Trying to kick it off. And uh it's you know we I I do it with my YouTube channel uh which I've got two million something subscribers on YouTube and um it's cool that I can make these documentaries but you know on YouTube like you can't change it up on people like there's the algorithm punishes when you change things so we had to start a new channel like you had interesting like you guys started JRE clips because you can't like back in the day the algorithm said you can't do short form then long form stuff and the algorithm kind of punishes you for that. So, you had to make a new channel for it. Probably what Jamie did or or the team did. I don't remember what the initial reason was. I think we decided it would be good just to have a second channel as well anyway, just in case because there was always the threat that YouTube was going to remove us. Which I do think that if it wasn't for Spotify and it wasn't for the fact that I was primarily on Spotify, I probably would have been removed during the whole COVID thing. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Because we were regularly questioning a bunch of different things that could have got you removed. We were regularly questioning regularly questioning the COVID lab leak. We were regularly questioning whether or not there was any danger to taking these vaccines. Regular regularly questioning alternative medical care. Yeah. And that that was maybe the the biggest scop of our lifetimes for sure. And now now confirmed that woke up normal people. That woke up average people. Because it was so obvious. Woke up a lot. Some of them like they just can't shake them. They're on 15 ambience. [__] They're just they're going to stay. I've got family members that are very trustful of government and uh they're like, "No, Chase, if if the if it was going to go bad or if it was this thing, they they would tell us." And I was like, "These are the people who gave you the food pyramid, right? and [laughter] told you to eat 16 loaves of bread every day and and Yeah, it's uh it's the idea that the government is here to help you.

It's that's the dumbest That was Reagan's best line. Yeah. That they're the five. Yeah. We're the government and we're here to help. Yeah. [snorts] That's um it's interesting how people will believe in the government if it is convenient but then if the other people are the government then it's 100% negative. It's like what people are so ideologically captured and that's why people are completely unwilling to look at anything positive that one of the other members someone from the other side proposes. Exactly. which is what what I found really fascinating about the response to the Trump thing, you know, that Trump uh passing the psychedelic initiative and trying to push through ibagain and psilocybin and all these different methods that people have used to overcome addiction and treat all these different things that we talked about before. They didn't know what to do with that. That was a weird one because they they tried to find all sorts of negatives. I I saw people trying to find negatives because it's him. Yeah. Yeah, which is so crazy. And there was also negatives because it was pushed by me and the idea was what was Joe Rogan helping mental health policy in America? Is that real? You're the green guy who takes horse pace, though. And a dragon believer. [gasps] Yeah. It's uh it's an interesting time to be alive, you know. Really is. So, what emotionally for you, if I I think if I saw myself edited like that on CNN or something, I feel like that would wreck me. I feel like I that would emotionally make me feel like [__] for such a long time. Were you just like over it? Oh, it didn't make me feel like [__] for a second. I started laughing. I thought it was hilarious. I was also very aware that they weren't aware that my show was way bigger than them. See, the thing about mainstream media is that mainstream media had ruled for so long that they had gotten delusional. They had been like a champion that didn't think that he had a train anymore and then some new contender came along that had been, you know, in the mountains of [__] Siberia. You know what I mean? And someone came out of the blue and just [__] them up. And they were they're so bad at this thing that they think they run. And they're als they also are very they're very unaware of the actual playing field. So the actual playing field that they exist in is so limited that they cannot ever achieve the kind of acceptance or interaction or trust that alternative media can. So there's too many people involved. Too many people will most certainly move things and water things down to like what you were talking about before like here's what I want people to think I believe. Right. Yeah. Which is most of what mainstream media produces. It's believe. You don't believe any of those people reading that teleprompter because none of it seems sincere. Your your mind registers this is a person reading something that's been written. It doesn't register. And then when you see them talking free form like on those panel shows on CNN, you're like, "Oh, you guys are [__] [__] Like [laughter] this is you guys have some of the dumbest opinions. You're so uninformed. You're so ideologically captured. This is so not compelling." They've turned CNN into a [__] group podcast.

That's a lot of the shows on CNN are bad podcasts with like shitty guests who uh you know, they're no nuance and they're yelling over each other. Exactly. It's a terrible format. No nuance whatsoever. There's also the problem that they have to break for commercials. And then there's the problem that the funding for those commercials, a giant chunk of it is pharmaceutical drug companies. Huge. Yeah. And the and as Mike Benz and Cali means and a lot of people have talked about, they don't do that because they want to sell drugs. They do that because now the news will not criticize the pharmaceutical drug company because the pharmaceutical drug company's responsible for enormous part of their income. Yeah. And I mean I wouldn't say definitively that that's happening. But I mean if you're the if you're the CEO of the president, you know exactly where the money's coming from. 100%. And if you get a phone call that says, "Hey, you know what? Maybe not mention that." Yeah. Or maybe attack someone who's got a narrative. Exactly. And turn them green and do all that other stuff. But like I said, for me it was making me laugh. I thought it was funny. I thought it was funny. I was like, "This is such a classic mistake." Like you you guys are completely out of touch. Yeah. Just delusional. Not understanding the backlash of that of just doing open like in your face. Like there was no like, "Hey, look over here." Right. It was just in your face scop. Not just that, they're also you you're making a green version of a video that exists on Instagram first. So it it's already out there. You don't think the internet is going to see that there's a difference in my skin tone on CNN than on Instagram? On Instagram, I look rosy and healthy. I I wasn't lying. I was making a video. I was if I was really sick. I was outside. I was outside having I was like, I feel good. I felt shitty for a day. I was being completely honest. Yeah. Nor did I ever think that it was going to be controversial to talk about Ivormectin. I had no idea. So, Ivormekin was not a controversial substance before I talked about it in that one video. It was it was normal. You could get it at a pharmacy. Your doctor could prescribe it to you. Mine did, but he also prescribed to me a ton of other stuff. Exactly. There it's so much other stuff like Finnbendazol is that's now getting a in into the same category as Ivormectin was.

Mhm. And Mel Gibson talked about it here with you. Of that combo. And there's a study now that shows I think it's from 2022 that that it's a a cancer treatment like a new cancer treatment, What the hell? I know. It's not patented. So, it's a demon. It's a demon. And these news stations are all complicit. They're they're all in bed with the pharmaceutical drug companies who again are responsible for enormous part of their advertising budget and that's where they make their money. And they don't have a lot of people that believe them anymore. I think they lost a lot of their credibility during the co epidemic. Who media? News media. I think the government and the government, but most people are aware like, oh, this is a scop. And then of course the final straw was Elon purchasing Twitter and then the Twitter files. So when Matt Taibbe and um and Shel Michael Shelonburgger and all these different people got a hold of these files where you could see the emails between the federal government and these social media companies where they were asking people to censor true stories and you're like what? And then when Zuckerberg was on my podcast, I explained how the FBI had contacted him and told him that they wanted him to censor stories and censor the Hunter Biden laptop story. It's terrifying. It's [__] crazy. This is This is literally banana Republic [__] So, have you heard of Project Mockingbird? Operation Mockingbird. I mean, it's not new. So, I mean, somebody says like, "Oh, I can't believe the government's doing this." And be like, "Wait a second. Just go just look at history, right? And Dr. Phil uh says one time is a pattern. And if you go back, there's way more than one time this has happened. Operation Mockingbird. Walter Konhite uh was a CIA asset. Legit CIA asset. So is Anderson Cooper? Is he? Anderson Cooper worked for the CIA when he was in college. Yeah. Look that up. Make sure that's true. I'm 99% sure. 99% sure, rather. Julia Childs. Whoa. Did you know she was CIA? It was a lovely, lovely little thing. Beautiful. She was in the CIA teaching people how to bake. [laughter] I think she did that uh handtohand combat course. [__] people up with a rolling pin. Is the Anderson Cooper thing correct? I believe he worked for the CIA in college.

Uh Anderson Cooper interned at the CIA for two consecutive summers while he was a political science major at Yale University. He did not pursue a career in intelligence. Wink wink. after graduating, later describing the agency's desk work at Langley as less James Bond than I hoped it would be. Yeah. Well, I think it's all less James Bond. It's it's more money. It's more money and influence. And what do the people in power want people to believe? But he's not the only one. Walter Kronhite, there were hundreds. Hundreds and hundreds. So much so it was every network. And there's no direct there's no declassified document that says here's what we told them to say or here's how compromised they were, but they were compromised completely and and most likely told exactly what to say or what stories to suppress. Does Mike Wallace have some sort of a connection? See if Mike Wallace had some sort of a connection with the CIA. But it it's it's a bunch of prominent, respected, trusted news anchors. Yes. Yeah. All over the place. And this was through the 50s, 60s, I think in the beginning of the 70s until this thing called the Mike Wallace is famous for his probing investigative reporting on CBS's 60 minutes regarding the CIA. Most notably a landmark 1993 report Carl titled the CIA's cocaine exposed. So he's the opposite. So he he worked to expose CIA stuff. The report exposed a covert CIA anti-drug operation in Venezuela that allowed hundreds of millions of dollars in cocaine to be smuggled. Okay. This is Iran Contra affair. Yeah. Okay. So it's the opposite. But with so many things like somebody's like, "Oh, I can't believe CO's doing this." Be like, "Well, look at look at history again." Like we do millions of people with LSD against their consent, against their will. Was it millions? I think well there were experiments with aerosol forms of LSD that were in cities in what? I didn't know about that Jamie. Aerosol LSD in cities somewhere near like Vermont or Boston. It was somewhere up in like the New England area. Um, [laughter] dude, what kind of a psycho do you have to be to like get a crop duster plane and fill up a tank of LSD and just spray it on kids? I don't I don't I don't get it. And then you go back to when we we dosed I don't know. I don't know how many African-Americans with syphilis or we like grouped them together that they had syphilis and didn't treat them and gave them fake treatments and stuff. US government has never openly sprayed LSD from their air over entire cities. However, during the Cold War, intelligence agencies in the military did conduct covert aerosol and mind control experiments on the public. What does that mean? It means you did it. Yeah. Not from a plane though, most likely. They were like, they probably had a fan and a bucket. CIA's notorious project MK Ultra sought to weaponize LSD and use it for mind control. CIA operatives were sent to San Francisco to spray the air with LSD25 at an unwitting party of guests.

There we go. Number two, the army sprayed thousands of unsuspecting Americans with uh aerosolized chemicals. Yeah. Military released a fine powder called zinc cadmium sulfide over 33 rural and uh subur urban rather and rural areas. Um scroll up a little bit please. Yeah. The targeted cities affected cities included St. Louis, Minneapolis, Winnipeg, Corpus Christi, and Fort Wayne. St. Louis was deliberately chosen because of its population density and the terrain were similar to the Soviet targets like Moscow. I was just looking [clears throat] up something else. Um, did you know about this? Why the [__] did Dan Rather and Donald Romell buy a New Mexico New Mexico ranch together in 1981? That's the same year he was promoted to news anchor at CBS Evening News. Oh, good lord. It's also like right next door to the Epstein ranch in New Mexico, right? And Ebstein famously got that to be close to Los Alamos, right? So he could lure those scientists over with uh But I mean, like, you go back through history, this is everybody's like, "Oh, the CO was crazy." It's not new. It's just we hadn't experienced it so blatantly before because they had never tried something like that during the age of social media. Yeah. And they used a playbook that relied on on putting a letter in the mail or sending a telegram. Yeah. They used a playbook also that required having control over the narratives that were being pushed out by the media. Yeah. And the media had lost its luster. It lost its impact on people. At the same time, the rise of podcasts had happened kind of under the radar and they didn't recognize it. They missed it. They they just overestimated their position. Yeah. And during COVID, you had more viewers than than CNN even. I not only that, when they turned me green and all that cancellation, bro, I gained 2 million followers on Spotify in a month. People were just like, "What is going on that everybody's trying to cancel this guy? Like, what is he doing?" And then they'd listen and go, "Oh, it's just a show where they talk to people. What are they trying to hide from us?" And then you have guys on like Dr. Peter McCulla and Robert Malone and all these different people that are you know Peter McCulla is the most published doctor in history in human history in his particular field of study and they were trying to make him out to be a quack and then you see what they did with Jay Bacharia and all all these different people and one of those guys was the inventor of m mRNA Robert Malone he has nine patents on the creation of mRNA technology and he should never be out there telling people that it might not be safe. Not only that, he took it and had a [__] serious horrible reaction where he almost died. Yeah. Which is what prompted him to try to figure out what the [__] is going on cuz he was assured by everyone that it stayed local. It's not going to cause massive inflammation and, you know, myocarditis and all these different things that it eventually was absolutely causing, you know. And then there's, you know, they're trying to hide now the impact that it's had on children.

you know, the impact that it's had on on children that took it and how what giant percentage of them that died after taking it died within days of the injection. Yeah. And they're trying to ignore the signal. And there's so many gaslighters all over Twitter. There's people that are paid to gaslight on Twitter. That's a fact. They There's pharmaceutical drug companies, just like a lot of other companies, will pay people to post. They'll pay people to attack. They'll pay people to be the voice of authority and reason so you can assure all the brainwashed boomers that they're right all along and everything's fine. Yeah. And if you just look at basic manipulation and and mind control, the number one fear of human beings is supposedly public speaking, right? Um but that's not it. It's the judgment that might come from public speaking. It's not the being on stage, right? It's like is somebody gonna judge me? Am I going to get ostracized? So, the way that they control a lot of this and and gaslight people is to use the fear of social punishment and social enforcement. And if I can get one celebrity to go out there and call these people a name and just give them a name as if it's a group of people, you know, like antiaxer, conspiracy theorist, dragon believer, that kind of thing. We we give it a name and that makes it easier for other people to socially enforce and it comes from an authority figure. So you get the tribe involved and all you got to do is is [__] up a few people. Yep. Uh like Robert Malone. Mhm. And and they're like, "Hey, I've got I can I can take this guy down. What do you think I'm going to do to you?" Uh and you just get that fear out there and that's all you need to do. And you kind of gaslight people because now like I'm I'm scared enough but I won't say I'm scared. I'll say no I'd rather not just say my opinion. So now my identity gets tied into it. Now it's part of who I am. I'm just not going to say anything. And it gets normalized like the the absolute just let me mute myself and and tape my mouth shut so I don't get punished. And then there's a bunch of people that attack and do the work for the man because they don't want to be lumped in with the other side. So they'll go on social media and call the antivaxers, you know, plague rats and all these different things. Yeah. And and and also say the wildest [__] like their children should be taken from them. They should be locked up, isolated from society. And this is uh something called category warfare. Have you ever heard of this? I I know the the expression. Uh this guy, I can't remember his name, [clears throat] but he wrote a book called Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things. It was the first language categories that we had for language was women, fire and dangerous Uh I think his name was Leaken, George Leaken or Leoff.

But if we if I frame something using a category, I can change what the allowed behavior is. So if I say that me and this other person are having a disagreement, your your brain automatically has a list of what a disagreement is and what's acceptable. But if I say we're having a fight now there's there's new stuff on the table. And all I did was change how something is defined in your brain. And we don't consciously process that our brain is getting permission to do things because of a category. But if I say I've been at war with these people for a long time now, a war is way different. Or if I say like I disagree with Rogan, that's one thing. But if I say Rogan is a threat, what do we do to something that's a threat? Right? we we have to neutralize a threat, So just small words like that change what our brain says is permissible in that moment. And that is really what's going on here. So actually two layers if I can go into this for a second. Number one is this category. Let me just get a category out there to make your brain think one thing is permissible. The second thing is I create the idea in such a way that you get to feel morally superior for adopting it. And you don't have to have any new morals or anything else. You just have to adopt this idea and you get to feel better than other people and that's it. So a change the category means like I can do something differently. So in a in a legal argument if somebody says we're at war with the other side, this is my opponent instead of the other person. What do we do with an opponent? We have to take them down. It's a fight. There's a winner. There's a loser. There's always assumed uh competition there. So, that is one of the biggest things that I I hope everybody can look out for as a as the influence scops expert. And I'm not immune to any of this stuff. Um, I buy stupid [__] on off of an Instagram ad as much as the next person. but it's important to know when it's when something is clearly presented to you and it's easy to feel emotional about it, you're being manipulated. something's clearly presented and it's just like here's this one thing and it's really clean and it's easy to get pissed off about or it's easy to feel comfortable about or whatever it is. If the if the emotional thing is easy without having to dig into it, you're being manipulated. And that's a giant percentage of what most people consume. It's Yeah. All day long. And it's it's compounding. So if I just consume a little bit, that's that's one thing. But now I get a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit further into this rabbit hole and we get in these obviously everyone says this online, but you get into these echo chamber of social media. All of a sudden, you can you can find your people anywhere. You can you can connect with your people. If you like to make uh knitted yarn vest for hamsters, you can find other people that do [__] like that. Um, so back in the day, if you had a bad idea, you couldn't find a lot of other people that agreed with you.

And now it's easier to find people to agree with you when you have a shitty idea. So the there's a niche. There's a whole separate niche. And on top while you're there getting told that your ideas are relevant and normal, they're not abnormal because there's so many other people. It normalizes bad ideas. The second part of that is I'm with all these people, but then I'll go back to normal social media and all I get told all day is I'm right about those people. I'm right about those people. I'm right about those people. And it's just it is so sick. And and which goes back to what we were first talking about how performative our world is and like how all of us conceal this shame so much that we can't ever be seen by anybody. like we'll go to the grave and and feel like my wife has never even seen who I truly am, you know? And then the other thing that's nuts is people have this complete inability to admit when they're wrong or change course. They have connected themselves. They've connected their their their whole being to whatever their thoughts are, whatever this thing that they've agreed is real. And once they've defended it, they never want to go back and objectively look at it and go, "Wait a minute. Oh, I believed this and that's not the case. Oh, this is the case. Oh, I'm wrong. Oh, no. I got to I got to course correct." No, they dig in and they try to find other echo chambers that agree with their initial position and other people that and there's plenty of people that provide those services for you. There's plenty of people if you want to live in your echo chamber. plenty of people, real and digital, that will provide you this escape from your ability to learn and grow. And and a sickopantic AI will do will help you. Oh, they're the best. They'll tell you, you're wonderful, darling. You're doing the best. I always tell people, you're not your ideas. And it's one of the most important things that I've ever learned. You cannot be married to your ideas. Your ideas are just ideas. And as soon as you defend them and as soon as you connect yourself to them and as soon as you connect your identity to them, you're in a [__] trap, you're in a real trap. And it's very hard to get out without admitting defeat. Most people don't want to admit defeat. That's how they look at it. They look at it's like a battle for their ex existential existence. Their existence is completely tied in to their belief system. Yeah. And it and we call that cognitive dissonance, right? So I either have to say I'm a dumbass or those other people are stupid, So like when Biden won the election, it was the same thing. People on the right either had to admit, wow, I'm stupid and I underestimated what our country's doing or the other people are just idiots and they don't know what's going on. Same thing happened when Trump got elected.

Mhm. Either like the whole country is stupid or I have to admit that I had I didn't know what was going on and I'm out of touch a little bit and maybe there's something good. I'll just I'll just say they're all stupid. It's we're protecting our identity is so it's ingrained into us. It's the ego uh thing like I don't want to be wrong and if I am wrong and I'm wrong in public then I risk ostracism again. So it's like get it's getting kicked out of the tribe again. It's going back to the same fear. And people love to do that, too. They love to attack people if they're wrong. They love to destroy people and and ruin all credibility that they've ever had that they've You could have been a public figure for 10 years putting out great information. You [__] one thing up. People want to abandon you forever. Especially if you don't admit it. Especially Oh, you're running for office. What about that? You took a nude when you were 19. You took a naked photo. And and that goes back to everyone's pretending like they're like everyone else has got their [__] figured out. And that's why everyone thinks everybody's got it figured out and I'm pretending. I'm the one hiding everything. I'm the everyone's got that [__] Everyone who thinks like, oh, they're going to find out my skele everybody's got skeletons in their closet. Everybody's got stuff like that. And it's we're in the age where we're comparing ourselves to highlight reels. And you know, Dr. Phil talks about this all the time. And but we have to realize that that there is people want you to be human and we don't enjoy fake [__] This is why people are attracted to your podcast. This is why stuff that's real is is trending so much more now. Like we're attracted to things that are human and flawed. That's why we buy [__] that says handmade on it. We don't buy like oh machinemade. No one celebrates that. Right. right? We like the humanness of things. Um, and even when I say there's a loneliness epidemic going on right now, everyone will nod their head and no one will raise their hand. Everyone will say, "Oh, yeah, it's affecting all those people." But no one will say, "It's affecting me." But they'll all nod along. And I think we're getting to a place where like maybe we're coming out of that. It just maybe it's me, maybe it's my uh echo chamber, but I feel like people are waking up. And I feel like more people uh not just through co but just now just the way the world is they're like well you know what this doesn't really feel it doesn't really it feels weird for me to hate and feel hatred towards one of my neighbors who didn't vote like I did that feels weird. Just to hate someone for that reason. I think people are waking up that maybe the plan is going too fast.

Maybe they're taking it too uh quickly. They're trying to go through all these steps too fast is what it feels like to me. Well, also I don't think they're competent. I don't think they're good at it. And that's part of the problem. Good at what? Good at projecting narratives. I don't I don't think the people that are necessarily in charge of propaganda, at least people at a government level, I don't think they're particularly slick. And that's part of the problem with all this. It's like it's like when you're at a middle school sleepover and the dad comes in trying to be cool. I was like, "Hey kids, what are you guys doing?" That's the government trying to run this [__] This is when you get syringes dancing on stage on the on a late night TV show, right? That was nuts. [laughter] Well, it's also a person who seems completely insincere, you know? Yeah. That ver that version of him, it's weird because the version of him that was on the the Daily Show was awesome. Like it was this character and irreverent. Yeah. It was raw and yeah, but you realize, oh, that was just really good writers. they have really good writers that created a a fun Republican character that was a buffoon, but like a hilarious buffoon. Yeah. [snorts] And then he went and did a TV show and you're like, "Oh, the real you is weird." Yeah, [laughter] but I I think our saving grace is what you're talking about is that they suck at this. Like, yeah, when your teacher uh announces there's going to be a pizza party and expects everybody to be super freaking out about it. Like, yeah, it's it's pizza. But the government's like, "Hey, guess what we got for you?" we got this new data coming out, this new data. And the SCOPS are working less because of the spread of information. So, people say, "Oh, social media is bad. you shouldn't be on social media. Well, some of that is is what's exposing this stuff. And we have people out there that are that are like you and I'm not kissing your ass here, but you're willing to say [__] that sounds preposterous at the beginning of something and and just make an observation that's real and you're willing to just The way that I phrase this in a lot of our training at uh my training is called NCI. The way that we phrase this is like the first ingredient of confidence is the willingness to receive social injury and we need more of that. We need more people willing to receive social injury. Well, the position that I was in during the COVID thing was very unique. So, it was uh almost easy for me because I had already I'd gotten such a head start. I was so far ahead of them. They and they didn't realize that my ability to say, "Wait, this is this doesn't make any sense." Like, none of this makes any sense. And also, why am I green? And also, why are you guys lying? Why are you lying about all sorts of different things? Why why are you measuring troponin levels when you're talking about myocarditis and not the actual scans of people's hearts when you realize like young people are getting legitimately [__] up from this vaccine? Not all of them, but some of them. Why Why aren't you looking at that?

Yeah. So when it happened, it was just it was just like I couldn't do anything other than what I did. I I had to just keep doing it the way I did it. And it was the blowback was crazy. They tried to crush my sponsors. They organized campaigns. There was packs involved. It was there was Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Thank god I was on Spotify. And thank god Spotify is not an American company. And also it helped that I was number one in like 90 countries. and not number 90 in one country, you know, that helped. that helped a lot. It the size of it was it was like it was so big that as big as they were, they're like, "Oh, like the And then there's the Strerysan thing like you try to silence something, you're you're just going to make it bigger." If I went to if they had kicked me off of Spotify and I had to go to Rumble, it would have just blown Rumble stock up and it would have it would have helped everybody. Yeah. I didn't know that there was that much [__] going on in your life. I can't even talk about it. But there was presidents involved and former presidents involved that were contacting Spotify. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Trying to get me removed for vaccine misinformation. Yeah. Wow. And it turned out to be All of it. Not a single [__] apologize. Interviewing the dude that invented mRNA. Oh yeah. And the most published doctor in his field. Not a single apology. Not a single apology from anybody. Not a not a single retraction, not a single, you know, miaulpa, not a single we were wrong. And you know, I lost a lot of sponsors. I lost a lot a lot during that those days. It was interesting. It was a there was a there was a time where uh it was working. I didn't know there was that much coordination. Oh, there was a lot of coordination. Oh, people are going to be I don't I don't I don't talk about it too much cuz it's it's pretty it's pretty deep. It was nuts, but it didn't work, right? But they tried and they they tried it. They spent a lot of money. A lot [groaning] of money. It wasn't a small amount of money. It wasn't a small amount of people. It was a lot of people and a lot of money. Yeah, that part was spooky, but uh the turning my face green was hilarious. That didn't bother me at all.

It's also I'm a comedian, you know what I mean? Like I'm a [__] talker. Like that's what I do. If you talk [__] to me, it's like you're not going to hurt my feelings that much. It's like I'm used to it. It's normal. This is a part of the game that I play. So, you know, especially if you're doing it and there's a video that's the real video that's available for anybody that goes on my Instagram page. Like [__] retards. Like what? [laughter] It is crazy. A stupid checker move. It's so dumb. And I think the what we see as authority hasn't changed in 200,000 years. But I think that what we consider to be social authority has been modified just kind of in the human side of things. Like it used to be, oh, this guy's got a suit and tie on. Now all these CEOs are wearing a hoodie or a t-shirt or something. Mhm. Like the visual definition of authorities changed and the the social definition of authority is started to change now where it used to be mainstream news and now we're moving into like a post news era of of something. I don't know what the next [snorts] thing's going to I mean what Elon always says is you are the news now and the the the rise of independent journalist and what you have what what you're selling what what is your currency is authenticity and honesty and and as long as you don't break from that as long as people don't find out oh he's secretly getting all this money from Apac he's secretly getting all this money from Russia secretly getting all this money and you know oh there's meetings where they've had where they've told people what narratives to push and then you see people on Twitter that are, you know, supposedly new influencers and then you see them almost cut and paste the exact same message over and over again and then you find out, oh, this is actual campaigns where you you're paid large sums of money if you have a large following, large sums of money, like significant amount of money to be a person who pushes narratives online. That's your job. You are literally a paid propagandist. And once people find that out, you're going to lose a lot of your people that are paying attention to you, that take you seriously, but there's going to be enough that don't know about it that just see the tweet and like, "Oh my god, is that true?" Like, "Oh my god, that's crazy." And enough casuals where you're going to get some traction, but you have sacrificed the one thing that you need to survive in this environment, and that's authenticity and honesty. If you don't have those two things, you're [__] Because when the mind readading software gets uploaded and everybody knows you and me will be all right. [laughter] They'll probably look in some of our brains and go, "Dude, you're [__] up. But you're [__] up, too. Everybody's [__] up. We're all [__] up." It's like, how do you behave? What do you do? How do you manage your [__] upness? What do you do? Uh what do you do with your time? What do you do with your life? We're going to know. We're going to know. Yeah. And we're going to know a lot of people online are just demons. They're just demons. Like in in the real sense of the term, like if you if you thought of what if you had a demon and if you were a demon, if if actual demons were real, what would they be doing? What would they be doing? Well, they would most certainly be trying to ruin people's lives. They would most certainly be trying to spread hate, spread misinformation, confuse people, get you to compare yourself to other people. Oh, yeah. Destroy you psychologically, get you to take medications that you don't need. Um, make you think that you're not enough. Yeah. Yeah. Make you think you're not enough.

Take money to in and sacrifice other people's health and safety just for whatever financial compensation you've got, you've been given to push a narrative. Yeah. It's demonic and it's separation. All of that is like you are separate from these people. They don't matter. You shouldn't care about them. You are separate. They are different things. You're not connected. You're not the same thing. And that's how people justify bombings. You know, that's how people justify war. That's how people justify all sorts of horrific behavior that human beings still engage in. What did George Carlin say? I think he said, uh, conspiracy is not required when interests all align. Right. That's a great quote. that's a great quote. He had so many bangers. He said it's a big [__] club. Yep. And you're not in it. You're not in He had so many bangers. Yeah, he did. But there's a few people that are in the club. That's what's interesting. You know, there's a few people that get in that [__] club and you know, and then all a sudden their opinions change. All sudden, they soften up on stances or they get killed on a campus. Have you had somebody on your show that you thought was compromised? You don't have to name names, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I've had people on my show that I I guarantee are here to try to push a narrative. Yeah, 100%. No doubt. And my own, you know, my it's I think in some cases it's obvious. And my job is to just keep them talking and let the internet do its job. Can I teach you a tactic right now? That will be good for these people. [__] yeah. All right. How much time do we have? We got time. All right. So, this is a CIA method called illicitation. And it was invented by this guy John Nolan. And um so the basic premise is you're going to get more the more sensitive information you need out of a person, the less questions you should be asking.

So here's how it works. You can get sensitive information out of people better with statements than questions. So there's there's a few different types of these statements. So the first one is called a provocative statement. And the provocative statement is just making a commentary on what somebody said. So let's say I just went through X and Y and Z and you're like so so basically and then you kind of recap what I said, And so no question. And then I'll kind of Yeah. And so I'll kind of I'll keep giving you a little bit more information. The second is triggering a need to correct the record. So, let's say you and I are in a grocery store and I say, "Joe, um, let's say you don't get recognized. Let's say go over there. I want you to within 60 seconds, I want you to find out how much the girl that's stocking the shelf over there makes per hour." So, you might go over there and be like, "Hey, how much do you make an hour?" But instantly, you're weird and that feels like an interrogation, right? But if you went over there and you said, "Hey, I just read this article. Everybody that works at Whole Foods got bumped up to $26 an hour." Oh, that's fantastic. Congratulations. And she's like, "What? We only make 22." And now she doesn't feel interrogated. And the answer came from correcting the record. Does that make sense? So now you're not a weirdo who's asking how much she makes. So now you got the sensitive information and it felt like it was just an a flowing conversation. So the third is disbelief. So, somebody says something and you don't get Jamie to pull up anything, but the disbelief is like they say, "Oh, and I've even worked with X and Y and Z or I've done this one thing." You're like, "What? There is no way. That just sounds impossible." And then they're like, "No, no, and" and they'll keep going because there wasn't a question. So, imagine if someone started telling you something sensitive and you're like, "Yeah, tell me more. Tell me more about that." It seems like you're kind of wanting to pull things out. So, the more that you can use statements, the more they're just going to keep feeling completely comfortable giving you stuff. What's interesting is I don't know those methods, but I do all three of those. You do a lot of that stuff. I just wanted you to be able to consciously grab on to it. I just do it instinctively. Yeah. I've seen you do it many times. When I smell [__] my instinct is going, "Hold on." So what you're saying is and you just give a touch of incredility, just a little bit of little bit of skepticism. And then allow them to kind of like expand on it and go, "Okay, so you're saying that this All right, so are you sure that that's the case?" Because a lot of people think this. No, no, no. And I do it sort of naturally. Yeah. Because the the most important thing is to listen as much as possible and keep them talking and um don't interrupt too much. But sometimes you have to sometimes you have to go like you're pushing. Hold on. This is horseshit. Like you this is like I'm going to get grilled for this online if I don't like stop this right dead in its tracks because I know and you know that you're lying. So let's And then but you also got to like keep them on the hook. So like you don't want to submit them yet. You got to like, oh, look, he got out of the arm bar. Crazy.

And a couple of those you you make them correct you. And you also say like, well, that had to be challenging or that sounds fascinating. And just those tiny little comments that just kind of keep them pulling along. The Russians did this to uh America during the Cold War. The uh a submarine would pull into Singapore or Thailand or something, and one of the some KGB guy would go up. there's some 19-year-old sailor at a bar and say like, "Well, we just uh Russia already has all these specs and uh it's amazing that Russian submarines are faster than US submarines because our propellers are 19 ft wide." And the was like, "Yeah, ours are 21." Like just just correcting the record. Just a tiny little thing correcting the record and some 19-year-old kid gives away top secret information in 35 seconds. Uh so that's where this stuff came about. Uh and when you're like a if you work in the nuclear field, you have a top secret clearance, you have to go through anti- elicitation training before you leave the country and go spend time at with some foreign national company. God, I hope so. Yeah. And you know what the number one thing in the first day of counter intelligence school? Uh the first thing they say is if you're a four and she's a 10 and she's interested in you, she's [laughter] a spy. [gasps] That is the the most primal and effective of all tactics is hot women. It is. And also what you see with James O'Keeffe, chatty gay guys. You see a lot of like hot guys. Yeah. You get chatty gay guys give up a lot of data. They give up a lot of [__] Way more than I would ever think. Oh, it seems like the chatty gay guys are worse even than the guys that are trying to impress the women. I wonder how far they have to go. I wonder how many guys they have to sleep with. I don't want to know. I wonder. I mean, for sure there's been a straight guy or two unless they recruit gay guys for the job, you know, cuz gay guys wouldn't feel nearly as bad for having sex with another gay guy to get information out of him, I think, than a woman would. A woman would feel like a [__] You know, a man who [__] some other guy that he probably [__] anyway, [laughter] it's probably no big deal. [snorts] You know, guys don't feel as bad about that. And have you ever read Red Queen? It's about biological behavior. It talks about like adultery in females occurs during ovulation most of the time. And really, it's a fascinating stuff in there. But one of them was that women are are reluctant about sexual activity because they face the risk of raising a child alone. Uh and it's not a a conscious thing, but like there's some biological driver that says if I am not careful here, I'm going to be stuck with this child alone. And if I and 200,000 years ago, if you're if someone abandons you and you're pregnant and then you're raising a child on your own, you're you're kind of off the market uh for and no one's bringing you meat, no one's bringing you, you know, fish out of the river and all this kind of stuff. So, I I thought that was interesting and that may be one of the reasons that it's it might be easier for dudes to go do something like that. Yeah. Well, we'd have to ask James. There's got to be a reason. Well, it's also [clears throat] um I think especially in politics, there's a large amount of in the closet gay guys that are in all sorts of levels of politics, all sorts of levels of government. Yeah, I have no doubt. I think it's been that way since Rome, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um well, it's a very peculiar kind of person in the first place that wants to control all the other people. Yeah. Well, you know, the difference between today and Rome is the concealment of the shame about it. And I think most people don't know the difference between shame and guilt.

I think they shame is a destructive force. There's nothing good about it. There's nothing positive about it. Um, guilt is focused on understanding the behavior and shame is focused on the person, the identity of the person who did it. And there's nothing productive like beating the [__] out of yourself emotionally does not make the other person who you've harmed any better. It doesn't make the world any better. It's it's down. I made a video on my YouTube channel uh basically giving a review and a tutorial of Planet Earth as if it was a video game. And like what's that video called? Uh I think it's called Earth is a game. Oo. So, it's basically like a 20inut like I'm with without breaking character like I'm giving a review. I'm actually in the game right now and I'm making a tutorial and a review of this video game that we call Earth. And one of the things I said in the video is like the developers don't tell you like what the main goals are of the game. Like how do I get on the leaderboard? What's the way that how do you win? And we went through like 10 different metrics. But at the end of the day, uh I think what gets you on the leaderboard is were you an upward force on most people's lives that you that you en encountered? Did you leave people better than you found them? And that's about it. That's about [__] It's like, am I a downward force on other people? Am I pushing people down constantly? Am I or am I just doing something else? And you remember like the the moment you launch into DMT, you're like, "Oh my god." I was worried about taxes. [laughter] I'm 17 black holes away and I was worried about my I9 form or something. I thought that was such a big deal. And it's the same thing that people like I think if you want to learn the number one and this is my my rambling, but the number one lesson I think most people could learn is from people that are dying, people on their deathbed. There's no better book you could read about how to how to master this game about how to get good at Earth is reading the regrets of dying people because inst there's so much clarity at at these moments where you know you're going to die like oh my god I thought all this [__] I thought that Lexus I thought I had to get the Lexus I had to impress everybody at the country club who didn't give a [__] about me and I didn't spend time with my grandkids I didn't spend time with my kids like everything gets so crystal clear in those moments that I think those are the best books books in the world like you read. I think there's a lot of nurses that work in hospice that write like collect a lot of these things and it's just so much perspective on what we think is so important and then at that moment like oh my god I can't believe I prioritize all that [__] Absolutely. I think this is a perfect way to end this. Yeah, man. That was awesome. Thank you very much. Okay, so um Station One, is that what it is? Channel one or Station One? Station One on YouTube. Y and then your show is what's the channel or Chase Hughes on YouTube. Chase Hughes and Station One. Thank you very much, man. Really appreciate it. It's awesome. It's really, really good stuff. Thanks, man. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody. [music] See you. [music]